mindless

My thoughts on that word, and the idea it represents, here:

http://abnormaldiversity.blogspot.com/2011/05/mindless.html

A zombie is not mindless, but Terri Schiavo certainly was:

^ And you missed the point of my piece.

Well, what do we mean by "mind"? Brain matter? Sapience? Nous?

More seriously, a zombie is (traditionally) mindless because it (traditionally) isn't conscious. Yes, I realize that consciousness is pretty much required to do the kind of complex behavior zombies do.

Terri Schiavo, however, really was truly mindless. Her brain was far too badly damaged to work in any meaningful way.

But as Ettina said, it was working. The brain is necessary even for breathing, which Schiavo was indeed capable of doing.

Mindless things can breath. The brainstem does not constitute a "mind".

Personally, I think that it's nitpicking of the highest order to say that because something is not literally brainless that it is also not "mindless", because "brain", "brain function" and "mind" are not generally synonyms.

But let's start with the dictionary definition of "mind" since to state that something is lacking an attribute, we really should know what the attribute that's lacking is:

1. . The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is manifested especially in thought, perception, emotion, will, memory, and imagination.
2. . The collective conscious and unconscious processes in a sentient organism that direct and influence mental and physical behavior.
3. . The principle of intelligence; the spirit of consciousness regarded as an aspect of reality.
4. . The faculty of thinking, reasoning, and applying knowledge: Follow your mind, not your heart.
5. . A person of great mental ability: the great minds of the century.
6. .
   • a. Individual consciousness, memory, or recollection: I'll bear the problem in mind.
   • b. A person or group that embodies certain mental qualities: the medical mind; the public mind.
   • c. The thought processes characteristic of a person or group; psychological makeup: the criminal mind.
7. . Opinion or sentiment: He changed his mind when he heard all the facts.
8. . Desire or inclination: She had a mind to spend her vacation in the desert.
9. . Focus of thought; attention: I can't keep my mind on work.
10. . A healthy mental state; sanity: losing one's mind.

Funny, none of them limit it to "brain function necessary to operate the body." One out of the ten includes "influences the physical body" as part of the definition.

Ettina, I think the word you really have a gripe with is "braindead", when it's not being used literally.

edited 7th Jun '11 11:10:29 AM by Madrugada

Right, so now we have a definition of "mind" which doesn't include all functioning brain matter. Does the OP assume that?

See, this is why I asked. If you're going to argue about the use of a particular word, you need to be in agreement about what that word denotes.

(ninja'd like fuck, obviously)

edited 7th Jun '11 11:11:31 AM by BobbyG

The post she quoted certainly assumes that "Brain function" and "mind" are direct synonyms, since it complains that Teri Schiavo was not mindless simply because she had a brain and enough of it was functioning to keep her alive, and that zombies can't properly be called "mindless" because they can stand upright and walk, which requires brain function.

I agree with her that zombies must have some kind of mind because hunting anything requires a mind.

Ok, so let's look at the definition of "Mindless":

1. .
   • a. Lacking intelligence or good sense; foolish.
   • b. Having no intelligent purpose, meaning, or direction: mindless violence.
2. . Giving or showing little attention or care; heedless: mindless of the dangers.

That's the American Heritage dictionary.

Here's Collins:

1. . stupid or careless
2. . requiring little or no intellectual effort: a mindless task

Here's Merriam Webster:

1. • a : marked by a lack of mind or consciousness <a mindless sleep>
   • b (1) : marked by or displaying no use of the powers of the intellect <mindless violence>
2. : requiring little attention or thought; especially : not intellectually challenging or stimulating <mindless work> <a mindless movie>

Webster's New World:

1. . not using one's mind; showing little or no intelligence or intellect; senseless or thoughtless
2. . taking no thought; heedless or careless (of); unmindful

Encarta:

1. . boring: uninteresting as a result of requiring little mental effort
2. . purposeless: having no apparent purpose or rational cause
3. . unconcerned: not careful or concerned

Again, it's defined as often as "not using the mind", and "not requiring the full use of the mind" as it is a "completely lacking a mind".

Tell that to a guided missile.

What?

I get an invalid input error.

^^^

How do we feel about the idea of philosophical zombies (as opposed to the brain-eating variety)?

edited 7th Jun '11 12:04:27 PM by BobbyG

I am a philosophical zombie. I think. At least that is what the scientist with the shot gun kept screaming at me. Poor guy said he had to stop me, but died of a heart attack. I miss him.

@Bobby G: They're impossible.

There's no reason for a p-zombie to behave differently from an actual zombie unless you postulate a Zombie Controller, but if you postulate such a controller they're not truly p-zombies, they're just a hive mind.

I thought a p-zombie was just someone without internal narrative. They look, act, and behave like a normal person, but if you "opened" them up you would find that there is nothing there.

A p-zombie isn't known to be a logically coherent concept.

I find the idea extraordinarily unlikely, but as a hypothetical, wouldn't it be possible for our zombie to hunt, say, by coincidence, without actually processing any thoughts?

So they would not be a thinking creature, but a surprisingly convincing simulation of one.

@Mad: I was responding to Black. You ninja'd me.

Thread Hop: I've found that in the case of the OP, the term "mindless" is a reference to what's sometimes called "the lizard brain" being the only thing present. So the basic operational capability is there, but the ability to plan or problem solve really isn't and the creature is operating purely on instinct.

@Bobby: How, though? There's only so far you can get on sphexishness.

Well, in the example I gave, by pure coincidence.