First thing's first: KEEP. THIS. SHIT. CIVIL. If you can't talk about race without resorting to childish insults and rude generalizations or getting angry at people who don't see it your way, leave the thread.
With that said, I bring you to what can hopefully be the general thread about race.
First, a few starter questions.
- How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
- Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
- Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
- Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
- Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?
Also, a personal question from me.
- Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian," as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?
edited 30th May '11 9:16:04 PM by Wulf
Yeah, their respect for us tends to extend only as far as "almost honorary white people," which is a merit badge I don't feel particularly inclined to earn. And besides, their supposed respect for us only ever seems to emerge when they're trying to weaponize us against other minorities - especially black people.
Anybody who only wants to respect me as a way of going "see, why can't the blacks just be more like you" can fuck all the way off. Same goes for the Asians who subscribe to that racist nonsense.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Oh, bother.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
And of course there are the guys who fetishize Asian women as exotic or some crap like that.
Okay, the above wasn't actually an example of the alt-right, but still.
edited 16th Jan '17 3:22:10 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
Eh, the Race Fetish aspect doesn't really bother me that much. It's been widely agreed that the "forbidden fruit" mentality plays a major role in shaping one's sexuality after all. Everyone's been guilty of it in some way or another at one point.
Speaking of which, I just found out recently that Masataka Taketsuru
, the founder of Japan's first whisky producer, married a Scotswoman during his time studying whiskey production in her homeland. The Japanese public broadcaster NHK (one of the very best non-cable channels by the way), depicted their relationship in a very recent morning drama series that ended in 2015.
so i made a new avatar
I'm not sure what you mean by "forbidden fruit".
To pity someone is to tell them "I feel bad about being better than you."
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
Basically, people tend to be attracted to others who are subconsciously seen as being harder to obtain or outside one's designated "sphere" so to speak. I explicitly recall it being described more thoroughly in one of the race-related tropes.
Dating What Daddy Hates basically.
edited 16th Jan '17 8:02:43 AM by JBC31187
Might be a biological element to it I guess, exogamy is generally considered beneficial to a species as a whole.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Seems like an appropriate time to post this.
This has happened to me, too - and I'm sure to so many other Asian girls.
From racist humor in mid-1800s brothels to today's playground jokes, the race and gender identity of Asian women is seen as so foreign, so "alien," that our vaginas magically defy biology.
Throughout my life, I've received unwanted comments and questions about my body, specifically my anatomy, including being harassed on the street with calls like, "Ni hao," "Konichiwa," "Are you Chinese, Japanese, or Korean," and recently, "Hi Ling Ling."
On top of that, in my dating history, I was expected to be more quiet and less assertive.
The hyper-sexualization and fetishization of East Asian women is problematic - I am not "lucky" that my race and gender is imagined as sexy and exotic, that Asian women "all so beautiful."
Or that, an image search of "Asian women" pulls up excessive pictures of women posing in lingerie.
Racial fetishes are about objectification, fetishizing an entire group of people - in this case Asian women, means reducing them down to stereotypes instead of recognizing their full personhood.
Beyond just personal preferences or "having a type," racial fetishes project desired personality and behavior onto an entire racial or ethnic group.
The fetishization of Asian women even has a name, "yellow fever" - as if the obsession with Asian women were also a disease.
When my identity as an "Asian woman" becomes the only thing that's important to someone in an interaction, that's a problem.
This is different from an interracial partnership where all partners are equally respected. Fetishizing someone's race and gender means not caring about someone as an individual.
As a note, my last post was an amateur guess. Not a justification for any kind of objectification/fetishization. Apologies if it came across as that.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
No worries. It actually is possible that there's something of a biological component to the trend, although I also think the societal and historical causes are both more significant and more troubling.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
Strictly biologically speaking, it's been established that mutt/mixed-bred dogs tend to have less genetically inherited health problems than purebreds.
It is both, exoticism is pretty much root in the "grass is always greener somewhere else" and the fact that when facing something outside our confort zone, we tend to drop all the tact and become little childish who ask "WHAT IS THAT!" mix that with sexism and woalla.
Actually, if I have to guess here, that is the whole "we need to kept our women but there is fair change" some racist show as some sort of projection or expecting people to think like they, as far they are concern all men are lustfull drooling beast who want other women, that fact they dont care about the double standar who low they are.
edited 16th Jan '17 8:45:44 AM by unknowing
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
That is more due to the level of inbreeding present in almost all dog breeds today-the closest human equivalent is multiple generations of incest; or small, isolated populations where substantially different genetic markers proliferate, while being endemic to that group-such as, say, pygmies.
Uh, okay.
And?
We're not talking about interracial relationships here, or the biological advantages thereof. We're certainly not talking about dogs. We're talking about racial fetishization and hypersexualization.
edited 16th Jan '17 8:46:21 AM by RBluefish
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
so i made a new avatar
...I don't suppose it's a great time to mention that I personally find Asian women to generally be the prettiest?
*braces self*
To pity someone is to tell them "I feel bad about being better than you."
So long as you don't go out of your way to chase after Asian women because of their race, impose your cultural expectations on them, or ask them about their sideways vaginas, we good. I mean, I also think Asian women are pretty.
I don't really care that much what kind of personal preferences people have. That's their business. But when you start treating people differently (read: worse) because of them, that's when we have a problem.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
We were also pondering what sort of biological impulses may be contributing to the human tendency to fetishize ethnic groups deemed foreign or alien to another. I offered the anecdote about dogs in how it may have something to do with ensuring better genetic diversity as to help provide better protection from diseases. The geographic isolation of the Native Americans rendered their bodies much more vulnerable to European diseases after all, leaving many of the survivors to intermarry with Spanish settlers; the British and French preferred bringing their own women in contrast.
edited 16th Jan '17 9:20:31 AM by FluffyMcChicken
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Fetishization and hypersexualization is a bit more than having a preference for a certain subset of humanity. Be that blonds, east asians or people with large noses. It's when you reduce them to that trait or blow it's significance out of proportion. Also if you ascribe stereotypes to people, like the submissive Asian women and expect them to adhere to that stereotype or prefer them for that reason.
the first part is psciological, the whole "thing are better down there" since most of the time people complain about what they got back home(note how all this asianphiles complain about western or white women) and the second part is as their are "alien" you can engage in all kind of "Unaceptable behivor" or act plain tasteless(hell this happen to LGTB as well).
it also that unlike many other steriotypes that a times are born of a desire to harm, this one is a desire to have it which make thing more complicate.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
About a couple weeks ago, a Korean cosplayer was accused of using brownface/blackface when she was cosplaying Sombra (a Mexican character) from the game Overwatch. This was caused by her using some body paint and makeup to make her appear a bit more brown skinned than she actually was. The cosplayer made her response in this post, the original version of which is quoted below:
At first, i'm Korean cosplayer and i never heard of that before - BROWN FACE make up is OFFENSIVE thing. When i heard about that is after uploading Sombra cosplay Photos.
I've been cosplaying which have dark skin than me once before. Female dark elf from the Dungeon and fighter. but that time my coworker said 'don't makeup your skin and body more dark. Because people might be think 'UNPRETTY'. I still don't agree with that. but that time i don't have a body painting skill so i just cosplaying dark elf as my neutral skin tone. that's 3 years ago.
And now i have a better makeup skill than that time- so yes, i cosplayed Sombra with skin color make up. Because i love that character's every thing, and Sombra's everything is awesome. I don't agree with 'DARK SKIN IS UNPRETTY' so i make up skin tone darker than me.
I keep saying 'skin tone darker than me' because i hate define peoples skin tone by color name. And i still don't understand WHY YOU GUYS DEFINED PEOPLES SKIN TONE AS A COLOR NAME? Some haters said to me 'brown facing is racist thing', but defined peoples skin tone looks racist to me.
I understand. If someone don't have a intention to offensive, for the other someone feels offensive. At Korea, here are famous E-sports commentator - well known as 'Koreamerican', he loves Korean food and Korean culture. A lot of people love him and i love him too, but some people said 'yeah, you are a American who has a money and live korea, so you can said 'i love you Korea' but we don't think so'. I think that Koreamerican don't have a intention to offensive but someone said 'that sounds sarcastic'.
Yes, all people can't have a same opinion. People has deferent experience and growing deferent. There's someone who discriminated by skin tone. They might be has a trauma even afraid going to school. And they can hate my cosplay make up. Because i can wash my dark skin tone make up, but they live with their skin tone forever. And i know they are better and awesome person than people who hate their skin. Yes they can hate me. And i'm really sorry about them.
Someone cosplaying disabled character even they are not actually disabled- disabled people can hate them. Someone cosplaying no-hair character even they have a hair - the people who has a cancer and have no hair can hate them.
I love Sombra's every thing and not make a joke and make fun of her skin tone, just want express her awesome. But some people accept as offensive. If it is not intention to offensive, but some people who has a trauma feels offensive- i have to apologize. I'm so so sorry for that people who has a trauma.
BUT SOME PEOPLE JUST USING A BAD WORD AND KEEP ATTACKING- WHO HAS NOT DARK SKIN AND DON'T HAS TRAUMA BECAUSE OF THAT. You guys are spokesperson who represent people who has dark skin? I think you guys looks just wanna fight and want to get my apologize as a trophy. Are you seriously not a racist defined people's skin tone as a name? Are you guys really hate racist and against them?
For Sombra cosplay, i shaved my hair and donate my hair for people who has a cancer. And i monthly donate money for kids including you guys defined skin color as a name. I'm not have pity to them. I help them because they will be better and that kids are future of their country(yes. I like Angelina jolie said help kids because they are the future of their country).
And i just want to ask- SO WHILE I DONATE MY HAIR AND DONATE MY MONEY TO PEOPLE WHO YOU GUYS DEFINED SKIN TONE AS A COLOR NAME- WHAT ARE YOU GUYS ACTUALLY DOING BETTER THINGS THAN ME FOR HELP PEOPLE EXCEPT SITTING ON CHAIR AND SHOUTING ON MY FACEBOOK? YOU CAN HATE ME. BUT THAT MEANS NOT I'M A BAD PERSON. YOU STILL THINK I'M RACIST - BLOCKED ME.
(Sorry for my poor English skill, hard to studying my self ;;)
tl;dr: the cosplayer honestly didn't know what she did was offensive because of how she was brought up, and dislikes the particularly hateful messages she got about it.
Eventually, when someone reached out to her in a private message, she edited the message and declared that she will no longer darken her skin for future cosplays ever again:
And she said to me her sad experiences and issues near her around. Also there was not a second of harmful words to angry with me. Her explain make me feels sad and i think my photos can remind her sad memory and that make me more sad. (we both crying with conversation) She is beautiful person who has beautiful mind. I don't want to make her remember her sad things.
So I'LL DO NOT CHANGE MY SKIN TONE MAKE MORE DARK NEVER AGAIN. Because i don't hurts kind people like her to reminds their sad memory.
like her messages - THAT'S THE RIGHT WAY to move someone's heart and make compromise with someone. you don't have to insulting using a 'bad words' like you keep saying "you don't have to change your skin tone"
The reactions were varied: many accepted the apology and agreed to move on, while others believe than an apology was completely unnecessary and that she doesn't have anything to apologize about.
What do you guys think?
United Earth
It's just a kind and empathic person making choices based on the best information available to her. I say bravo to her for standing up for what she thought to be the right thing at the time, and for changing her mind based on new knowledge. And bravo to those who reached out to her with kindness and understanding.
As for the WSJ who took this as an opportunity to play Inquisition, fuck em.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I mean I'm on the side of her not painting her skin brown when it comes to humans of darker-skinned ethnicities (exceptions should be for fantastical characters, like brown-colored rock people or lizardwomen). I don't think she needed to apologize, and people who demanded one from her given the circumstances were being unreasonable, but the fact that she did anyway, and changed her behavior as an act of respect after polite conversation, is much appreciated. I truly don't think she's the kind of person who doesn't care about people of other ethnicities.
However certainly people should be polite in explaining such things to her as a rule, especially since it's clear English is not her first language. While I'm ultimately glad she dropped the brownface and that some people were decent enough to explain to her why without tearing into her I'm disgusted by the behavior of a lot of the people who bullied her in the process.
Basically, screw GIFT and the current trend of excessive pseudo-Calvinism among the more immature social justice "advocates". And also holy crap they need to cut it with the US-centrism, especially when it comes to issues regarding Asian culture and politics. Responsible activists should meet them halfway and criticize while also acknowledging that their upbringing makes them less likely to view race(s) the same way as other cultures, and that language differences may be in play. After all social justice is about sensitivity and understanding towards others, which requires things like context. Not a one-size-fits-all imposition of your values and judgements on others before taking that into account.
Hopefully this will be yet another wakeup call to some of the more truly well-intentioned people out there, though it's not going to do anything to change minds about the kinds of people who already believe in "all Asian people are categorically incorrigible white-passing racists and don't deserve our respect or patience".
edited 16th Jan '17 2:28:05 PM by AlleyOop
The Mod with the Migraine
The people yelling at that poor cosplayer were wrong, full stop. She's from an entirely different country, with very different history and perceptions of racist behavior.
I don't think the cosplayer really did anything wrong. She didn't set out to offend, she was trying to be faithful and accurate to the character. The person who sent PM to inform her, about how blackfacing is demeaning, did the right thing. I hope this incident doesn't turn her off cosplaying.
That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Point of interest: pretty much nobody ever does. Impact outweighs intention.
Anyway, my read on the situation: person from different culture wears brownface out of ignorance. Some people are angry with her, some approach her and explain to her why what she did was offensive. She apologizesnote and promises not to do it again.
And they all lived happily ever after.
edited 16th Jan '17 2:40:40 PM by RBluefish
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
Granted, when all is said and done, they still mostly hold white people above the rest. They just think of us Asians as the "good" minorities.
Disgusted, but not surprised