What's wrong with "coercion" as defined by Libertarians?:

Total posts: [241]
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1 feotakahari28th May 2011 04:58:25 PM from Looking out at the city
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
I think this is where we keep hitting problems in our political debates. It's not that I don't believe the government takes taxes by force. It's that I don't see what the problem with that is. I mean, given both my illness and my finances, I might not even be alive if I weren't draining other people's cash. I just do it through indirectly driving up health insurance premiums, rather than through having my health care paid for by taxes.
That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
Proud Canadian
Because health insurance companies are awful instutions.
If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
Nihilist Hippie
They redefine "coercion" to mean (an idealized conception of) property rights violations.
"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
Just about every political philosophy that applys to anything beyond a kindergarten has coericon of some sort.

What differs is what that coercion is used to obtain, and the circumstances under which it is used.

For example, even the most libertarian of libertarians wouldn't argue against coercing an invader to leave. Or at least, I hope not.

edited 28th May '11 5:26:02 PM by HungryJoe

Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
Are you asking what's wrong with their definition, or what they define as the wrong of it?

The problem with the libertarian concept of coercion:

  • With government: You have $100. The government takes about $20 of it, leaving you with $80.
  • Without government: You have 2 cows and a sheep. Somebody with a gun kills you and takes it all, leaving you with no cows and no sheep.

TLDR: Yes. government takes your money, but it takes it in order to maintain its ability to protect you and your money. You would not have property rights without government for all practical purposes.
I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
You left out what they do with the 20 bucks.

Let's say they build a road, so you can take your cattle to market.

8 MajorTom28th May 2011 06:19:27 PM , Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
^^ You are mistaking libertarian ideology for anarchist. The two are not compatible. (Especially for US libertarians.)

edited 28th May '11 6:19:36 PM by MajorTom

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
vigilantly taxonomish
That's not anarchism, that's complete absence of any infrastructure.
10 drunkscriblerian28th May 2011 06:25:22 PM from Castle Geekhaven , Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
"Coercion" is one of those touchy words that is often re-defined to suit the needs of the moment. Like a good many subjective terms, really.

In B 4 Savage Heathen
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed.

~Cora M. Strayer~
11 MajorTom28th May 2011 06:31:07 PM , Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
^ You mean like "welfare" and "human rights"?
"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
vigilantly taxonomish
Yes, like "socialism" and "big government".

We could compose a list.

edited 28th May '11 6:33:32 PM by BobbyG

13 del_diablo28th May 2011 06:36:58 PM from Somewher in mid Norway
Den harde nordmann
People really dislike being told the truth of what the extension of the word means, and people have mostly not thought about it.
Hence the original use is usually to shock the opponents into fail to do a properly reply.
Of course, the problem then falls back to that you just derail it into a Sliding Scale and hence the problem is no more.
A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.
14 GameChainsaw28th May 2011 06:38:07 PM from sunshine and rainbows!
The Shadows Devour You.
Communism Fascism Government Control

Liberalism Conservatism DO A BARREL ROLL!


Its not easy to make a Stupid Statement Dance Mix out of weasel words, ok?!
Dude, you should put that on Youtube.

Gunpla is amazing!
How are you gonna pay for roads and police and fire fighters and schools and libraries and all the things taxes pay for without taxes?
17 HungryJoe28th May 2011 07:40:22 PM from Under the Tree
I've heard one fellow say the Free Market would cause buisnesses to ensure such things.
Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
Gunpla is amazing!
Private Cops and Firefighters? Only private schools who can have their own agenda? Hahaha. No fucking thanks.
19 Fighteer28th May 2011 07:42:58 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
[up][up]Whoever said that has never studied history.

edited 28th May '11 7:43:51 PM by Fighteer

In one town there was a privately owned fire department. The problem was, when they arrived, they'd have to check whether you'd paid, and if you hadn't you'd have to pay before they did anything, and by that time the fire had gotten worse.

However, private schools have had a long and successful history. Of course most didn't teach the poor.
Gunpla is amazing!
And private police would have zero reason to go into low wealth reasons (where all the crime takes place)
22 HungryJoe28th May 2011 07:46:34 PM from Under the Tree
The average public school teacher gets paid more than the average private school teacher, even in some of the more prestigious schools.

Unless you're at the collegiate level.
Charlie Tunoku is a lover and a fighter.
Gunpla is amazing!
[up] And? They are still paid shit. Thats a fault of the private sector.
Private schools are good at serving their students. Unfortunately, they aren't necessarily so good at being open in selecting their students.

25 TuefelHundenIV28th May 2011 08:01:18 PM from Wandering , Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
The idea of corporations filling those roles makes me cringe.
"Who watches the watchmen?"

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