This should probably be merged with Made Of Magic: Pure Magic Being

Exactly. And many "solid-looking" examples are indistinguishable to the naked eye (and sometimes to physical medicine and scanning technology) from ordinary flesh-and-blood beings, their true nature only revealed when something equally abnormal disrupts the integrity of their magic-based "substance".

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Yep. And one of the big reasons we split things into different tropes is that media treats them differently In-Universe. This has a huge case of that. Tropes aren't just "This is an X." Tropes are "This is an X and here's how it effects the plot." Any part of that can be reason to split.

Laconic: If something isn't treated the same In-Universe, it's not the same trope.

edited 17th Jun '11 6:19:40 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Well, it seems like this is a deadlocked issue. I am sorry, but I disagree personally about the way you differentiated magic from magical energy - magic in such places is expressed as the force arising from magical energy. This is NOT a natural science derivation - it is based off fantastic terminology and I rather resent you strawmanning my argument in that manner.

Shimaspawn, however, gave an excellent reason for keeping the split from Energy Being although supporting the 'magic separate from articulation of essence / essence' argument. This is not an objective issue that can be measured 'so' and 'so'. Magical beings LOOK different from 'energy' beings. Doesn't matter if they are - at the centre of it all, we're just trying to keep the articles of a good size.

Marq seems to feel about this strongly, and I do not want a confrontation with him. My only concern is that Made of Magic isn't that big, and Pure Magic Being could still stand to go into it - the Wiki Magic worked has not been with that page, and it's just a list of examples without so much as a decent introduction. They might as well be merged into Made of Magic anyway, at least until there's actually some effort made on the page. If Marq feels otherwise, well, I challenge him to write an engaging, funny introduction for it. Just stonewalling a proposed change doesn't seem that cool to me.

It just isn't that fun to read.

edited 18th Jun '11 12:42:32 AM by Crimsonthorn

They're actually pretty good sizes considering one is less than a year old and the other is only a couple of months old. They're doing great for their age. Length will come once they've had more time to grow.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

We could make Pure Magic Being an Internal Subtrope.

I apologize if I came across as strawmaning you; that was never my intention. I was trying to point out what I saw as glaring flaws in your argument, though evidently I had phrased my reply too harshly.

That said...

Okay, look at it this way: The usual form that "magic" takes (AFAIK, at least) is the system of spells and rituals that harness one or more of the following (I might have missed others, but IMO these are the most common ways):

1. One or more forms of supernatural energy, either in the form of Mana, a Background Magic Field, or both.
2. Spirits, be they demons, gods, fairies, or otherwise.
3. Actual laws of reality, like forcing a supernatural being to obey just by knowing/speaking their true name, being able to shatter someone's bones by chanting the right Magical Incantation, explicitly without any of the above being involved.

I admit that in some works, the above may not hold true, and magic may in fact be actually the same thing as mana in them. That does not mean that we can consider all cases of Pure Magic Being as being made of magical energy, however.

I was not stonewalling, I'm trying to point out that you're overgeneralizing things. Magic isn't always a form of energy (I already mentioned the Nasuverse an example in the previous page, and I also add Mahou Sensei Negima), so the only way to prove that all cases of Pure Magic Being are also cases of Energy Being is to check every example in fiction.

edited 18th Jun '11 8:24:02 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Bump for resolution. And I see the crowner is not getting enough votes.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

But a magical thing is not a system of spells and rituals, it's a thing that has had magic applied to it via those components |maybe| :l Magic comes from those things you mentioned, yeah. But those things themselves provide magical essence. You seem to be confusing means with ends, in my opinion.

In itself, a magical thing is something which has received an |application| of magic.

A magic elemental is an entity made of magical |essence| - 'pure magic'.

Magical |essence| is a form of energy, where energy is a semiquantifiable resource of harnessable OR unharnessable might.

You seem to be overgeneralizing yourself: magical essence is not 'mana' solely.

I concur with the suggestion to make it an I.S.

edited 2nd Jul '11 8:59:29 AM by Crimsonthorn

I've only rarely seen a Pure Magic Being made out of mana or energy. It's generally something far more abstract that that if it's explained at all.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Wait, where did I say anything about "magical things"? I've only talked about "Pure Magic Beings".

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I don't like the Internal Subtrope idea. They're sufficiently separate narratively that we'll have to cram two completely different trope definitions on one page and that's always a mess.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Okay. What issues do we have left? Are the current descriptions okay?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

In some 'verses, critters as mundane as unicorns, fairies and dragons are described as being made of pure magic. So...definitely not Energy Being.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Yeah, where Energy Being is glowy and made of light, Pure Magic Being tends to be a lot more solid looking. A Pure Magic Being bleeds when you cut it. They are not treated at all the same by media.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I wouldn't go that far. Some Pure Magic Beings are Energy Beings, but many are not. The concepts are unrelated but can overlap, like Horror and Fantasy or Science Fiction and Westerns.

edited 6th Jul '11 11:41:01 AM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

*bump* Last call for votes, otherwise I suggest we declare this one dead.

edited 12th Jul '11 8:30:02 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

So in summary, this thread starts with a proposition to merge with Made of Magic. That idea was rejected on the ground that Pure Magic Being is a workable subtrope.

Then there was a call to rename to Purely Magical Being. The crowner ended up in the red and has been there for weeks.

Setting a three day clock.

No consensus to change it. Locking after nearly two months inactivity.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.