Naming issues: Badass Bookworm

Maybe Bookworm Badass? That way, the bookworm will be seen and interpreted first.

That makes "bookworm" the adjective being used to describe "badass" which is in fact a move in the opposite direction, it's so close probably nobody will notice it has been changed and why go for a subtle trick that might not work when we can just outright state what we want?

Nerd First Badass Second thirded.

I don't think Nerd First Badass Second really works. Badass Bookworm and Genius Bruiser are both about the appearance that one would have, not their actions. It's about how the snap judgement you made based on their looks is actually wrong. Like the trope descriptions say "A Badass Bookworm looks like your standard geek, but then displays a surprising amount of physical prowess, whereas a Genius Bruiser looks huge and powerfully muscled, then unexpectedly shows off an intellectual side". It's not about their personalities, it's about how their looks belie their abilities. Nerd First Badass Second implies that the badass part is more of an addition to the person than a true part of it. The opposite (nerd in addition to badass) goes for the other suggestions so far. As the trope stands, its not about personality as much as it is about appearance and first impressions being wrong. If we want to change the name to any of the current suggestions, we'll have to change the trope too.

edited 6th Aug '11 7:17:56 PM by raithe

Heart Of Silicon Fists Of Steel?

Looking back on this discussion and having reread the descriptions of both Genius Bruiser and Badass Bookworm, we need to define some terms and figure out what the goal is here. As I read the tropes as they stand now, these tropes in no way define the personality of their members, simply their appearances/abilities. To quote the description again, "A Badass Bookworm looks like your standard geek, but then displays a surprising amount of physical prowess, whereas a Genius Bruiser looks huge and powerfully muscled, then unexpectedly shows off an intellectual side". They are not, as the first poster put it, "a stereotypically nerdy character turns out to be a badass" and a "Badass who reads a lot", respectively. They are supremely intelligent, supremely combat-adept people, the first of whom appears only to be the former, while the second one appears to only be the latter. As I stated above, this trope is about first impressions being wrong more than it is about the actual personality of the people involved. If the new definitions of them are what the first poster said, we need to fix the tropes themselves, not just the name. If the trope definitions are currently accurate, then we need to fix examples to fit the trope, not change the trope name. Thinking it over, we might also want to clarify the description a bit, regardless. A Genius Bruiser is by definition The Big Guy and The Smart Guy, whereas Badass Bookworm is by definition The Smart Guy but not necessarily The Big Guy, merely combat capable but not always the muscle. Anyway, we need to define what these two terms really mean and how they are used before we can determine a goal.

(To the above Troper: Same Problem as before [nerd with a helping of badass] and will give us a robot connection which would require an I Thought It Meant)

edited 6th Aug '11 9:54:29 PM by raithe

Nerd First Badass Second is over that way. You want Minored In Ass Kicking.

This trope describes either equally adept at both, or someone who is a badass first and a nerd second.

This has lain dormant for four days. The name is only part of the problem. We need to redefine the trope,especially as relative to Genius Bruiser. The trope is currently being used to define characters that are clear genius bruisers (Beast from X-Men and the Librarian from Discworld are both included here) as well as people who aren't really bookworms (Sokka from Avatar The Last Airbender may be a brilliant strategist, but his offering to a librarian spirit was a unique knot) and people who aren't truly badass (Belle from Beauty And The Beast may be brave, but she does not have amazing combat skills. Genius bruiser is relatively well-defined: like I said before, it's The Big Guy and The Smart Guy in one package, but only appearing to be the Big Guy. But neither term in badass bookworm is well defined in the trope. How the character is badass is vague at best, with four different ways to fight described. The bookworm part is glossed over, with little explaining it. With the first part, arguably the term itself has become a problem. The term has become simply another word for cool. The problem is that it is also being used at the same time to denote someone with extreme combat skills. The entire term probably needs redefinition, but in relation to this problem we need to decide what this trope needs to be. Is it about people who, despite or because of being a "bookworm" (and we'll get to that in a second) are still extremely combat capable, or is this trope more about those who are considered cool and are still "bookworms". The trope examples lean toward the second one, so we need to define this trope in terms of ability to kick ass. How combat capable does the person need to be? Obviously the Non-Action Guy need not apply. But is it just enough to be at least equal with the rest of the team's average in combat capability, or do they have to outpace them? And do we mean only personal combat, or does strategy or building a doomsday weapon also count? As for the bookworm part, what do we mean? The current trope appears to be about appearances, as I stated above. But a lot of the examples, and the confusion with Genius Bruiser, stems from the idea that it's about personality. So do we simply mean this is a person who does not appear to be combat capable, but is? If so, then we need to replace bookworm with a more generic term, maybe make it a supertrope to its current form and Coruching Moron Hidden Badass, making it about being generally hidden combat capability and then list specific ways to hide it. On the other hand, we could go the other way and make it more about personality. Have a requirement about being a nerd or a geek, or simply smart, to go along with the combat capability. This could lead to conflict with Genius Bruiser however, encroaching on its turf, and would make the trope less about how the person appears, putting Beast and the Librarian back in as good examples. Regardless of what we decide, the trope needs to change. As I said above, its not the inverse of Genius Bruiser, its merely similar, and its far too vague right now for any name to be a good fit.

Hit enter twice for paragraphs.

Bookish instead of Bookworm? Bookish Badass?

I don't think we've actually shown misuse. Not saying that there isn't, but just that it hasn't been demonstrated. Could we get someone to do a wick check? I won't have the time for a few days, at least.

Agreed. I want to see missue before renaming. Personally, I don't see a problem with the name. Genius Bruiser is about geniuses and Badass Book Worm is about book worms. Both are exactly what they say on the tin. I don't see how 'reads a lot' is missue.

Sometimes it's used for "Badass character who wears glasses that are not tinted".

Is anyone using any of the tropes to mean "a person who makes use of his knowledge to become good at fighting" ? Is there a trope for that?

I think that counts under Awesome by Analysis

Not really feeling the rename here.

It's a Bookworm who is reveled to be a Badass.

I'm with Sackett, perhaps the examples need cleaned up (as so many tropes do), but it seems to me it is (or should be) the inverse of Genius Bruiser:

• Genius Bruiser: Character appears to be a simple tough guy, but is actually really smart.
• Badass Bookworm: Character appears smart but non-threatening, but is actually a badass.

A lot of it is about "appearances." Physical appearance is a part of it, but other things like reputation enter into it too. Batman wouldn't be a Genius Bruiser, for instance, because it's part of what you "expect" from Batman. And he wouldn't be a Badass Bookworm either, as it's pretty obvious that Batman can kick your ass.

Agreeing with the two posts above.

Where does Minored In Ass Kicking come in?

I've been fixing some of the entries in Real Life. If anyone wants to help me...