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"Protecting our freedom overseas"
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Total posts: [165]  1  2  3  4  5  6
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"Protecting our freedom overseas":

 151 Kino, Mon, 23rd May '11 2:10:14 PM from NC/NYC Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Connoisseur of redheads
That's what I was about to say; them killing our civilians: intentional...civilians dying in our attacks: collateral damage.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I'm not sure if "better" is the term I would use.

They are just as dead afterall, and I don't think their families especially care either way if they died for "democracy" or "jihad" or "mothers apple pie".

Gunpla is amazing!
Still sucks and doesn't change the (understandable) hatred at us, but its something.

Uncle George
when did we start killing civilians in retaliation for terrorist attacks?

Lemme think... earliest I can think of Operation El Dorado Canyon in 1986, when the US bombed Libya in revenge of the bombing of a Berlin disco that killed two US soldiers (and one Turkish woman, several hundred injured). Needles to say, the revenge was more devastating: 60 dead (45 soldiers and officials, 15 civillians) and two thousand injured.

As for Afghanistan, the war began as an air campaign to destroy terrorist camps and the Afghan infrastructure, the latter causing a humanitarian catastrophe, and can't be seen as much else than an attempt to take revenge on the civillian population. The exact number of casualties is kinda hard to dig out, but thousands died in the first few months from direct agression and from starvation and other attrition.
This love so bold goes undeclared/a joy unseen, a world unknown/a love that dare not speak its name/hidden treasure, precious stone
 155 Kino, Mon, 23rd May '11 2:36:49 PM from NC/NYC Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Connoisseur of redheads
1) That counts as an attack on Us service members; we were justified in retaliation; there's no rule that says "They killed 2 of yours, so you can only kill 2 of theirs".

2)We don't target houses and schools with the intention of killing civilians, but if enemy forces decide to take cover from within and return fire, they become targets. Keyword being starvation, that's not us.

edited 23rd May '11 2:37:23 PM by Kino

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Uncle George
If you don't target civillian houses and schools intending to kill civillians, then why?

Also, what about Operation Just Cause, where the US did specifically target civillian targets, and then claimed only a few hundred died, when most international sources say thousands died? What about US trained paramilitaries in Latin America that were specifically instructed to attack "soft targets"?
This love so bold goes undeclared/a joy unseen, a world unknown/a love that dare not speak its name/hidden treasure, precious stone
 157 Best Of, Mon, 23rd May '11 3:40:59 PM from Finland Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
I dunno how many times I've linked to this on these fora, but the US has certainly killed and wounded hundreds of civilians in bombings in Europe during the Cold War.

Operation Gladio: the CIA, the MI6 and secret services in each of the target countries (which meant every European country except the ones behind the Iron Curtain) set up sleeper cells to serve as stay-behind resistance groups in their country in case the Soviets conquered Europe.

Most of the groups were formed from former Nazi German and Italian agents that were trained to do the same thing against the Allied powers.

The Parliament of the target country was never informed; only the heads of state and Prime Ministers plus a few other top officials were aware of these operations.

When the Cold War stayed cold, the Gladio cells got new orders: to make sure that Socialist parties never won elections.

The softer means by which this was carried out included espionage and blackmail, kidnapping, assassination and fraud.

When that was not enough, the networks carried out terrorist attacks against their country and framed the Reds.

Examples include the Piazza Fontana bombing that killed 17 and wounded 88 and the Piazza della Loggia bombing, which killed 8 and wounded 90 people; both of these operations were carried out under NATO command in Italy, as was the kidnapping and assassination of former Prime Minister Aldo Moro and the planned but ultimately cancelled coup d'etat in 1964 called "Piano Solo"; these were just examples from Italy, but such operations were also carried out in Spain, Germany and France, and other terrorist attacks but not bombings in other target countries.

All of this was revealed when Italy's then-Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti revealed the existence of the Gladio network to Italy's Parliament, which led to investigations in most European countries, though very few people were ultimately charged, mostly because intelligence networks adopted a policy of refusing to give information to the President and Parliament of their own country, instead destroying the files with the knowledge that copies of them existed in the UK and the US.

There's a book about this by Daniele Ganser, Senior Researcher at the Center for Security Studies at the Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, named NATO's Secret Armies: Operation GLADIO and Terrorism in Western Europe.

The US has already acknowledged that Operation Gladio was a real operation of theirs, but so far they haven't admitted the terrorist operations; instead, many of the officers in charge of these operations have come out and exposed this.

So the US certainly has killed civilians on purpose in countries with which they were allied. Sure, the actual operations were mostly carried out by the intelligence agencies of the target country, but the orders didn't come from their own institutions; instead, they came directly from Washington and London.

So if that's enough to justify retaliation (which it's not, if you ask me, ) then, well, Italy has a right to blow up a couple of train stations in the US.

edited 23rd May '11 3:43:26 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
 158 Kino, Mon, 23rd May '11 3:45:13 PM from NC/NYC Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Connoisseur of redheads
If you don't target civillian houses and schools intending to kill civillians, then why?

Because the people we intend to kill are shooting at us from inside of those buildings.
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 159 Major Tom, Mon, 23rd May '11 4:52:29 PM Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
^ Which is the problem of Urban Warfare, how do you know a civilian house is just a house and not a pillbox lying in ambush? You don't until you either search it or bullets start flying from it.
"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
victorinox243
So, it's a runaway reaction. You kill two of our people, we kill sixty. You kill 3000 with airplanes, we topple your country and spend the next 10 years finding you all.

If you can justify killing 60 for 2, you can justify killing everyone on the planet for 2.

We're not operating under Hammurabi. We're operating on something more primitive than that.

So, who's winning? Freedom? I think there are plenty of people by now who have been liberated from this mortal coil, though I don't think that's what people were aiming for.

Uncle George
Of course, the point I forgot to bring up was, that why must one use military force in these cases? The bombing of Afghanistan didn't bring Osama forth, and the Berlin bombers were caught by West German intelligence. Last I checked, the police don't order a air to surface missile strike on the apartment block of a suspected murderer.
This love so bold goes undeclared/a joy unseen, a world unknown/a love that dare not speak its name/hidden treasure, precious stone
I want Kat's glasses!
[up][up]You fail to take the percentages in account here. It was actually: "you kill 3 with 67% of military targets only, we kill 60 with 75%".

That makes the States the better guys.

And it's even better for 9-11: Al-Quaeda's kills were 100% defenseless civilians.
They Called Me Mad!! I decided to show them all; but when I looked on my works, oh mighty, I despaired: for it made me realize they were right.
 163 Best Of, Wed, 25th May '11 1:34:11 AM from Finland Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
Al-Qaida also struck the Pentagon on September 11th. I bet at least one soldier or officer or other military personnel died there.

Last I checked, the police don't order a air to surface missile strike on the apartment block of a suspected murderer.

There's a certain troper who might say "they would if they could, and it would be right for them to do so - don't give me that coward, hippie bullshit about protecting the innocent!"

edited 25th May '11 1:36:09 AM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
 164 Kino, Wed, 25th May '11 4:36:38 AM from NC/NYC Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Connoisseur of redheads
[up]They can't, it's called the Posse Comitatus Act.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I want Kat's glasses!
[up][up]Or did they?tongue

Edit: Damn, it doesn't document the claim on the book cover: Basically, the subtitle was "no plane ever crashed on the Pentagon". It presented some "disturbing facts", such as that video footage was only released months after the crash, "more than enough to add the plane in post-production".

Anyway, I don't believe any of this shit, I had just forgot the pentagon part. Either way, I'd be curious to hear the percentage of "military" vs. civilian casualties on both sides, as well as the rate of intended civilian casualties on both sides.

edited 25th May '11 5:15:35 AM by Medinoc

They Called Me Mad!! I decided to show them all; but when I looked on my works, oh mighty, I despaired: for it made me realize they were right.
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Total posts: 165
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