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Trigger Warnings:

 26 feotakahari, Thu, 28th Apr '11 9:21:40 PM from Looking out at the city
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
It's worth noting that some of the protests against this came from rape victims who had flashbacks because of it. I would never have thought of that joke as being a potential trigger.

edited 28th Apr '11 9:21:48 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
 27 shimaspawn, Thu, 28th Apr '11 9:26:56 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
[up] And you know what, because of that strip, Rape as Comedy is listed on the Penny Arcade page without being graphic. Proof that the wiki is self warning without the addition of trigger warnings. The best warnings the wiki can have are to link all tropes in a work that could be problematic.

edited 28th Apr '11 9:28:10 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Away on the wind~
Not really proof, no.

Not unless you wanna go through all the rape tropes and check their entries individually.

One case of it does not mean all are like that.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
 29 Ironeye, Thu, 28th Apr '11 9:55:55 PM from SoCal Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
Of course, anyone who knows that rape is present and has the time to add a trigger warning could also figure out at least one entry on Rape Tropes that is present, thereby making the trigger warning redundant.
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Away on the wind~
Anybody who has the presence of mind to add the warning could just as easily rewrite the entry, too.
There are too many toasters in my chimney!
 31 blackcat, Thu, 28th Apr '11 10:42:37 PM Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Wait. No. Stop.

We are talking about a work, not publishing it. Why do we need to put up any kind of disclaimer when talking about something that is talking about something?

There are a lot of people out there in the world that have been victimized by stuff but that doesn't mean there is an obligation to throw metaphorical capes down in the mud in front of them.

If we were dedicated to assisting the victimized I could understand the impulse to make the world safe. But, this place is dedicated to exploring the tropes of storytelling and sometimes the stories aren't safe and they aren't pretty.

Every single one of us is the victim of some kind of violence/crime/whatever the hell. That doesn't mean the world is obligated to protect us from references to that experience. Especially when we are talking about fiction. That is one of the purposes of storytelling, isn't it? To help us understand the things that happen.

Love extends the boundaries of what people can accept, but don't depend on it.
FWIW I think trigger warnings are a massively bad idea. Virtually every site that has one ends up with a flame war over what it should go on. It may start with just one or two "sensitively" placed warnings, but it ends with people deciding anything that causes Squick also causes triggers. I agree that anyone who has been hurt badly enough to get triggered by tropes needs help we cannot (and are not qualified to) give. Trigger warnings are not the solution to that, sorry.

edited 29th Apr '11 6:49:56 AM by CrypticMirror

Aid the Paradox Archaeologists, meditate on the tropes used: Beyond The Star Empire Of The Otters Of Doom
 33 Meeble, Fri, 29th Apr '11 6:40:32 AM from the ruins of Granseal
likes the cheeses.
I'm in general agreement with Shimaspawn on this one.
Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
 34 Silent Reverence, Fri, 29th Apr '11 1:49:21 PM from 3 tiles right 1 tile up
adopting kitteh
I mostly agree with CM in this one. Our mission is not to babysit people, nor it can be due the nature of our medium. If people are so hurt they can't read the word "grape" without thinking back to "horrible times", they are giving trouble not just to us.
Her Royal Highness
Blackcat summed up my feelings pretty well, actually.
Co-founder of Heapers' Hangout. Loves Anonymous User.
I think both sides are exaggerating a little. I don't believe we need Warnings on Work Pages and Tropes, but Warnings on original pages like WMG, Fan Fic Rec and Troper Tales wouldn't do any harm and they wouldn't be "babysitting". However, I think the warnings should only be given in special conditions, like very big descriptions or images, that actually have triggered people.
संसार
In Riastrad
@Shima; That's essentially what I said. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to realize that a trope with Rape in the name is very much about rape.

Except Mind Rape.

But that's another story.

Also, if anyone brings up a discussion on whether to rename Mind Rape I will eat my desk.
My name is Cu Chulainn.
Beside the raging sea I am left to moan.
Sorrow I am, for I brought down my only son.

However, I think the warnings should only be given in special conditions, like very big descriptions or images, that actually have triggered people.

For that purpose, I think spoiler tags (possibly accompanied by a "disturbing content" warning higher up the page, like we have on The Human Centipede) would be sufficient. Do we have an option to hide/show individual images, though?

edited 29th Apr '11 3:17:10 PM by EmilyD

 
[up][up][up] fanfic recs already have Tags for stuff like that.

edited 29th Apr '11 3:32:50 PM by CrypticMirror

Aid the Paradox Archaeologists, meditate on the tropes used: Beyond The Star Empire Of The Otters Of Doom
 40 Madrugada, Fri, 29th Apr '11 3:32:24 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Images? No.
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 41 Tuefel Hunden IV, Fri, 29th Apr '11 3:59:53 PM from Wandering. Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchmen of the Apocalypse
I am going to side with blackcats view in general.
"Who watches the watchmen?"
 42 shimaspawn, Fri, 29th Apr '11 4:51:28 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
There shouldn't be anything in images that isn't SFW though. Our images are generally pretty mild on purpose.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 43 Ironeye, Tue, 3rd May '11 3:11:54 PM from SoCal Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
The moderators have discussed the issue and have decided on the following policy. Comments and constructive criticism will be appreciated, but it is unlikely that the broad strokes will be changed. Assuming that there are no major issues, I will add it to the Trigger page this weekend and it will become official.

It is not our job to account for people who have difficult with the mere mention of rape, abuse, violence, etc., so no policy will be designed with such people in mind. In the case of everyone else, as it is not our job to be a replacement for common sense, and as a partially implemented system will be worse than no system at all, there will be no official trigger warnings. What will at will not be allowed depends on the type of page in question.
  • In general, graphic images and descriptions are not permitted on the wiki anyway, so there should no new policy is needed with regards to graphic content.
  • All tropes on the wiki where things like rape and abuse are described in detail (but not graphically, of course) should have sufficient low-detail warning, either through the name of the trope (if the page is about rape, abuse, etc.) or in the trope description (if the trope is often used in such contexts). As such, trigger warnings on trope pages are unnecessary and will be removed.
  • Works pages should almost always be able to describe the premise of the work without any issues. In the rare cases where the premise itself is Squicky, unofficial warnings will be permitted. If the work includes problematic content, but such content is not essential to the premise, the trope list and possibly the description should make this clear. As such, no separate trigger warnings will be permitted for the content of the work.
  • Subpages with examples should follow the same rules as the main trope pages with regards to content. Anyone who reads example subpages without being familiar with the name and description of the trope has bigger problems to worry about than triggering content. As such, no extra warnings are to be given on subpages. This includes Troper Tales, as both the main page and the guidelines (link at the top of every Troper Tales page) are clear as to what is and is not allowed.
  • Fan Fic Recommendations should already include warnings about rape and abuse if such things are not present in the original work, so no change in policy is required here.
  • For subpages like WMG and Headscratchers, common sense dictates that people may discuss content such as rape or abuse in a non-graphic fashion if the original work included such content. If you are worried about such content being discussed, it is your job to familiarize yourself with the content of the work (possibly via the main work page). There is no problem with self-censorship, of course, but censoring other people will be treated as tampering with their query/theory as usual.
In short, Fan Fic Recs should have objectionable content of any kind tagged already, works with a Squicky premise may have unofficial warnings, and no trigger warnings are permitted otherwise.

As I mentioned above, comments and constructive criticism may result in tweaks, but we will almost certainly go forward with this policy soon.

edited 3rd May '11 3:36:44 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Fan Fic Recommendations should already include warnings about rape and abuse if such things are not present in the original work, so no change in policy is required here.

Do they, though? Last I checked the only thing we warned for on fanfic pages was "homosexual or non-canon material".

 45 Ironeye, Tue, 3rd May '11 3:21:01 PM from SoCal Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
There was a long discussion about that in which it was decided that more warnings were required (including heterosexual material, as well). If the guidelines page for Fan Fic Recs has not been updates since then, it should be.
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
With the fanfic thing, the problem is the current template is not being followed properly (or at all). It needs to be bumped up to the top of the fanfic recs page and a concerted effort needed to convert the existing pages to that format (I think the problem is converting the existing comments to reviews, if we could have permission just to nuke the current comments rather than copying them over then we could convert them all in a week tops, it's the fiddly bit of transferring the comments that is time consuming)

But apart from doing more to get fanfic recs to follow the correct format, I think this is exactly the right course. Full marks one and all.
Aid the Paradox Archaeologists, meditate on the tropes used: Beyond The Star Empire Of The Otters Of Doom
Looking at a bunch of random fanfic rec pages, it looks like most have no warning at all, but more have the old warning than the new one. There doesn't appear to be any general guidelines page at all.

The template with the guidelines is at the very bottom of the Fan Fic Recommendations main index page (also it says "preferred format" which makes it seem like it is optional, should be "required format", permission to change that too please mods?). That's what I mean when I say it should be at the top of that page. The Tags section is explained there. It's up to the original recommender to decide if a fic needs tags though. Although I should note, the only real warning needed is already at the top of the page, albeit in Gratuitous Latin, "Caveat Lector: Let Reader Beware".

If we convert from comments to reviews (which isn't being pushed and ought to be) then anything in the comments that reflects a need for a tag ought to be included. The trouble is the conversion from rambling ranty comments isn't being done because of the requirement to convert them into reviews, which is fiddly and time consuming. If we could be allowed to nuke the comments (let the commenters put their own review in) and just do a straight-up adding of review-code and tags it could be cleaned up pretty quick.

edited 3rd May '11 4:05:54 PM by CrypticMirror

Aid the Paradox Archaeologists, meditate on the tropes used: Beyond The Star Empire Of The Otters Of Doom
 49 Willbyr, Tue, 3rd May '11 6:44:54 PM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up] I agree; the entry format info needs to be moved above the page list on Fan Fic Recommendations and changed to "required format".

edited 3rd May '11 6:45:31 PM by Willbyr

 50 Ironeye, Wed, 4th May '11 10:09:12 AM from SoCal Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
[up]Yes, that needs to be done. (This is official moderator permission.)

As for the matter of comment transfer/deletion, I'll speak with the rest of the moderators. We may end up making a new thread in Special Efforts about the fan fic recs issue.

In the mean time, let's re-rail this thread.
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
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