Faith vs. atheism on behavior

Bugman asked, in the context of whether atheism leads to lax ethics, if I think the more laws people have to obey, the better.

Certainly not. It's more complicated than that. There's always an element of evil in the positive law, because it's based on fear of the executioner (even in states without a death penalty, you can be shot for resisting arrest). Also, once there are more positive laws than a common citizen can remember, the law takes on a certain perversity (ignorance of the law being no defense from punishment).

That's why there's something so romantic about communities who uphold, century after century, a code of ethics the state doesn't enforce. It represents an ideal far beyond most humans in this vale of tears.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

@Bugman Every traditional practice isn't wrong just because it's traditional.

That's not to say every traditional practice should be accepted without question, but it's not right to discard something just because it is not modern.

There's no justice in the world and there never was~

Oh, do enlighten us on what deity demanded footbinding.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

edited 10th Jan '13 8:42:22 AM by JosefBugman

So what? There's always a proverbial stick. If it's not fear, chances are it'll be shame, which is the greater evil in my book.

Tongpu makes baby Confucius cry.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

edited 10th Jan '13 8:46:18 AM by JosefBugman

But isn't the thought of hell the same as the thought of a police arrest?

Look, you can't make me speak in a logical, coherent, intelligent bananna.

No, because being arrested is a concrete punishment. Fear of damnation isn't.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt." - Some guy with a snazzy hat.

And arrests are varied based on the severity of the sin. In Hell, everyone roasts over the same fire.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!

@Wicked: There's no clear support for that.

If there was, Dante would've been a heretic.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

If you believe it will happen, there's no difference in your mind.

Depends on which interpretation.

edited 16th Apr '11 11:10:10 AM by deathjavu

Look, you can't make me speak in a logical, coherent, intelligent bananna.

edited 10th Jan '13 8:50:45 AM by JosefBugman

Regardless of whether there are levels of hell or not, the fact remains that religious law relies on the promise of heaven and the fear of hell, which is no different from the promise of legal privileges and the fear of arrest or execution. In fact, I would argue that it's worse, because no secular punishment lasts an eternity, whereas hell does.

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."

All someone has to do is convince themself they are going to heaven and suddenly anything they do will be okay (Crusades)

@OTOH: Depends on whose Hell. I thought you were raised Hindu.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

No worse than any other excuse people have for doing rather nasty things.

@Rott: Yes I was. We had our divine punishments just like anyone else. You die, then you go to face Yama, who sends you through a type of purgatory before reincarnating you. If you didn't comply to society's idea of proper conduct, you get to live life as a miserable leper or something, while if you were good, you get to be rich and fat and happy. Not only did this keep people in line with fear, it also bred contempt for the poor as having done something to deserve their station in life. Scientific knowledge was not the only thing that made me an atheist, you know.

edited 16th Apr '11 11:22:15 AM by OnTheOtherHandle

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."

@OTOH: How has atheism changed the way you treat animals?

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

Not much. I've found it takes a lot of guts to make yourself eat meat after fourteen years of being a vegetarian, so I still have much the same lifestyle as I did when I was faithful. Anyway, vegetarianism is healthier than being an omnivore in my case, as long as you make sure to get protein. Plus it's better for the environment. I've simply found more satisfying reasons to refrain from meat than "Because it's Right and Holy."

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."

It is unlikely that baby Confucius espoused the same sick ideas as adult Confucius.

No. It's worse. Police arrests can be empirically proven to exist, the degree of their unpleasantness can to an extent be quantified beforehand, and information about which acts lead to arrest is unambiguous. The thought of police arrest is less likely to promote out of control levels of irrational fear.

@OTOH: So maybe atheists aren't so bad, unless they grow up that way.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."