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Wheezy (That Guy You Met Once) from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
(That Guy You Met Once)
#27776: May 28th 2016 at 5:44:29 AM

[up] Yeah. Speaking of that, one of my hard-and-fast rules is to remember that, like David Ogilvy said, "I'm a lousy writer but a meticulous editor." Most of my stuff isn't any good until I've rewritten, rearranged, and tested it in different forms to see which one I like best. Like a lot of ad agencies, as well as some bands (even if they do that on the road) and comedians, for example.

Plus, I enjoy editing almost as much as, if not more than, the "churning out words" part of writing because I think I'm actually good at it.

This is just me, though. Some people are great at writing, but terrible at self editing, like Andrew Hussie, and I don't think that's too judgmental to say he's far better than me at one thing, and possibly worse than me in another, because they're very different skill sets.

Edit: Here's another memo to myself.

Concept > Outline > Story > Characters. Is how it usually works, although the first two are interchangeable - but if you want to be a consistently good writer, you need them all. A lot of writers are always frustrated because they try to start with characters and write stories around them. Please don't. You didn't pop into existence then guide history to cause your own birth: if so, keep doing you, God. If not, writing is hard enough without doing it backwards. Start with character archetypes and fill in details as you go - or just start writing your story - and it'll slowly assemble the characters it needs to tell itself, as long as you stick to "Magic A Is Magic A". And because they're custom-tailored to your story, they'll probably be very good.

...Also, I've noticed these are starting to sound more refined the more I write them.

2nd edit:

Similarly, never should you ever try to write a genre story. Write a good story that happens to use that genre's tropes. And only the ones that fit it.

3rd: If I ever expand this Long List into an Ebook, I think the title will be "Writing Advice Backwards." (The title is Sarcasm Mode, not my intention to name it that.)

edited 28th May '16 6:20:12 AM by Wheezy

Project progress: The Adroan (102k words), The Pigeon Witch, (40k). Done but in need of reworking: Yume Hime, (50k)
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#27777: May 28th 2016 at 7:50:01 PM

I'll admit I don't know what genre i'm writing.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Wheezy (That Guy You Met Once) from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
(That Guy You Met Once)
#27778: May 28th 2016 at 8:54:37 PM

You really shouldn't. Most of the best stories are either Genre Blending or Genre Popularizers.

edited 28th May '16 8:55:20 PM by Wheezy

Project progress: The Adroan (102k words), The Pigeon Witch, (40k). Done but in need of reworking: Yume Hime, (50k)
Wheezy (That Guy You Met Once) from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
(That Guy You Met Once)
#27779: May 28th 2016 at 10:15:34 PM

Also, one of my rules is only just a metaphor:

Done long enough, repetition of any kind drives people insane. Learn the basic rules of how to be good, then use them to avoid repeating yourself too much. Both as a person and a writer.

So, that said:

There is only one story, "the adventure story," and different media, tropes, and subcategories just are the way it keeps from getting too repetitive.

So if you borrow as much as possible from all of them, all you're doing is keeping it from repeating itself so it doesn't get bored. And, similarly, the best thing you can do to notice when you're repeating yourself too much and stop doing it. And avoid getting stale as you age is to keep borrowing from elements all over the place and using them to make ways to avoid repeating yourself. For the rest of your life.

I'm an atheist, so that's probably the closest thing I have to a religion, actually. It's also why I'm an Anti-Nihilist. And that's the best I can sum it all up without going into insane woo-woo meta territory, so I think I'll stop.

edited 28th May '16 10:53:34 PM by Wheezy

Project progress: The Adroan (102k words), The Pigeon Witch, (40k). Done but in need of reworking: Yume Hime, (50k)
SabresEdge Show an affirming flame from a defense-in-depth Since: Oct, 2010
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#27780: May 29th 2016 at 1:00:37 AM

There is only one story, "the adventure story," and different media, tropes, and subcategories just are the way it keeps from getting too repetitive.

That's an overreach, as it should be quite easy to think of examples from across all manner of media that are not adventure stories without stretching the term to meaninglessness. That in turn should conjure up character types and plot conflicts that wouldn't typically be center stage in adventures. Think broadly.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.
war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#27781: May 29th 2016 at 1:13:00 AM

Yep, slice of life, or drama, is a compliment to adventure. I think it is also possible to create a comedy that is not clearly, or even remotely either a drama or adventure. Although such a comedy would be weird. In addition, there is horror, which in the case of some slashers is quite hard to qualify as either adventure or drama.

I write fantasy. I will likely only ever write fantasy. However, I don't think I will ever write a straight example of sword and sorcery. So in this way I think I understand not writing to a genre, but rather writing a story and then later figuring out the genre.

Wheezy (That Guy You Met Once) from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
(That Guy You Met Once)
#27782: May 29th 2016 at 3:44:30 AM

[up] Yes, exactly.

Same here, actually. Yume Hime is technically a fantasy, but because it has so many framing devices in the script I'm writing it from, it's also a dark Teen Drama, Surreal Horror, and Coming of Age Story. I just haven't drawn those parts yet, because I never update it anymore.]] Even though I'm still working on it behind the scenes.

But the whole point is, if I do all those genres as well as I can within the same story, I can avoid being TOO polarizing, because someone will like at least ONE part and ignore the others.

And since my belief, like there's only one story, is that everything is an increasingly complex metaphor, that's why I think genre is just a way we classify too-complex metaphors, because we've noticed a lot of them do the same things. That's the whole point of TV Tropes.

That's why we have to categorize them based on what they look like.

edited 29th May '16 4:36:44 AM by Wheezy

Project progress: The Adroan (102k words), The Pigeon Witch, (40k). Done but in need of reworking: Yume Hime, (50k)
TeraChimera Since: Oct, 2010
#27783: May 29th 2016 at 9:30:17 AM

Every story is adventure? No. Only if you try way too hard to reduce things. "Adventure" calls up certain themes that other genres don't (or can't) have. When I hear "adventure", I usually think of exploration and wonder, with relatively low-key action. There can be differences, obviously, and that's only my opinion, but genres exist for a reason.

Before Sunrise is literally two people walking and talking for the whole movie. Except where they're sitting and talking. This is not an exaggeration. Tell me how that's adventure. Saying "the adventure is metaphorical" doesn't count; if metaphors count, we can get anything to fit into any genre by going "it's metaphorical".

Collen the cutest lizard from it is a mystery Since: Dec, 2010
the cutest lizard
#27784: May 29th 2016 at 9:31:44 AM

The real adventure is the friends you make along the way.

Gave them our reactions, our explosions, all that was ours For graphs of passion and charts of stars...
TeraChimera Since: Oct, 2010
#27785: May 29th 2016 at 9:42:48 AM

[up] That's saying "the adventure is metaphorical" with different words.

Saying "the adventure is metaphorical" doesn't count; if metaphors count, we can get anything to fit into any genre by going "it's metaphorical".

Collen the cutest lizard from it is a mystery Since: Dec, 2010
the cutest lizard
#27786: May 29th 2016 at 9:54:26 AM

The real metaphors are the adventures we have along the way.

Gave them our reactions, our explosions, all that was ours For graphs of passion and charts of stars...
Wheezy (That Guy You Met Once) from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
(That Guy You Met Once)
#27787: May 29th 2016 at 10:30:37 AM

[up][up] That's the point of not writing to a genre. You don't artificially constrict yourself to one set of tropes, you just tell the story that needs to be told and decide what it is later.

Honestly, I think the Bible is just a massive and extremely complex series of metaphors for "How do you be God? You never try to become God. How do you be Satan? You try to be God."

And that's how people looked at it too hard and saw "no shellfish," "grow a big fuck-off beard because god loves men with beards more," and "God loves me because I have money." Like any fandom.

Again, the 'there's only one story" thing is just my belief, as well. I don't want to argue. BTW, mods can delete it if you think it's too Flame Bait-y, but if anyone wants to talk to me about the Bible part, please PM me instead of posting here.

edited 29th May '16 10:32:25 AM by Wheezy

Project progress: The Adroan (102k words), The Pigeon Witch, (40k). Done but in need of reworking: Yume Hime, (50k)
TeraChimera Since: Oct, 2010
#27788: May 29th 2016 at 11:12:21 AM

Why are you posting all these long things if you don't want to debate them at all? I put up one argument against them — one single argument — and you're immediately all "I don't want to argue." I do. Arguments can still be civil. The least you can do is tell me why you think I'm wrong.

Wheezy (That Guy You Met Once) from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
(That Guy You Met Once)
#27789: May 29th 2016 at 11:15:39 AM

I'm not going to yell at you, but that's exactly why I told you to PM me. Because, I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but . This happens on tons of forums and in Real Life: I segue from responding to your post into something I just wanted people to read and think about, people think I'm trying to argue, and it gets ugly because I just want anyone who reads it to think about it, because I just think it's true. And it just turns into a Catch-22 Flame War no one wins, IRL and online. So please, PM me so it doesn't get deleted.

Bold for emphasis, to sum up my point, not for yelling.

And I keep having to post disclaimers like that.

edited 29th May '16 11:19:15 AM by Wheezy

Project progress: The Adroan (102k words), The Pigeon Witch, (40k). Done but in need of reworking: Yume Hime, (50k)
TeraChimera Since: Oct, 2010
#27790: May 29th 2016 at 11:26:56 AM

That is really, really disappointing. Debates != flame wars. I get that it's what you think is true. I told you what I think is true. I'm asking you on your opinion on a specific point.

And you never responded to my original point: "How is Before Sunrise an adventure story?" And if you want me to PM you, the least you could say is, "I'm so dedicated to this stance that I'm not going to respond to any more posts on this subject."

SabresEdge Show an affirming flame from a defense-in-depth Since: Oct, 2010
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#27791: May 29th 2016 at 11:43:52 AM

Right. You made an assertion which some of us find nonsensical, and we said so. And then you decide the argument is closed at the first sign of disagreement?

I have to agree with Tera here. I was hoping for better.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.
Wheezy (That Guy You Met Once) from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
(That Guy You Met Once)
#27792: May 29th 2016 at 1:03:16 PM

Please not here. Because this happens. It goes in a circle until one person can't argue anymore and fires up the Ad Hominems. (Not saying you're doing that now), so I just repeat myself in different words until they stop, because it's hard to debate a gray area. TBH, someone just always does, which is what ruined the party I mentioned on the last page.

And that is why I at least try to shut down a Flame War in one post.

edited 29th May '16 1:07:32 PM by Wheezy

Project progress: The Adroan (102k words), The Pigeon Witch, (40k). Done but in need of reworking: Yume Hime, (50k)
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#27793: May 29th 2016 at 1:07:54 PM

I'm not really seeing how people disagreeing with you is automatically a flame war.

Wheezy (That Guy You Met Once) from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
(That Guy You Met Once)
#27794: May 29th 2016 at 1:13:27 PM

TL;DR: Because I repeat myself in different words because I don't like arguing but I'm good at writing, I just enjoy debate, so I can go on like that forever and they get angry because I'm repeating myself and the other person's argument always turns into "Well, you're just a fucking dick. YOU DICK. YOU DICK!" but in tens of different words and phrases over time. I HATE that, I really hate being yelled and screamed and sneered and giggled at both online and in person, unless I'm inducing it on purpose, because that's just the only harmless kind of trolling if everyone's in on it. So please, stop asking before we all get deleted, because it's happening now.

I know how to write, and I've studied lots of context and psychology, so I know how that goes. I write the way I write on purpose. Which is why I say to study the basics before genre.

edited 29th May '16 1:17:04 PM by Wheezy

Project progress: The Adroan (102k words), The Pigeon Witch, (40k). Done but in need of reworking: Yume Hime, (50k)
TeraChimera Since: Oct, 2010
#27795: May 29th 2016 at 1:26:37 PM

You posted something you admitted to be potential flame bait on a public forum. I expect you to be able to defend it on the same public forum. If you don't want to debate, don't post debatable things. If you can't take the heat, don't step in the fire.

Wheezy (That Guy You Met Once) from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
(That Guy You Met Once)
#27796: May 29th 2016 at 1:36:28 PM

Oh for fuck's sake then. Let's turn it into a game, if you love arguing for argument's sake so much, so everyone learns something about writing, so we'll be on the same fucking page.

Premise: I only enjoy trolling people if they enjoy or I find them quite deserving of being trolled, yet instead of being trolled. However, I have realized very early in life that I am good at pissing people off, so I have recently discovered I shall use this power to teach people things instead of for evil, and I shall mislead them in the direction I want society to go, which is agreement instead of argument, a la the splendid works of one Rebecca Sugar and one Toby Fox, to shut down an argument before it becomes a battle before it becomes a war before it becomes mutually assured destruction. I do this because I have learned the fundamentals of writing, because that was the only point of my writing, was to write things better instead of falling back onto the arbitrary system of morality to make things better. I can talk this way, or ee keen queet eesily took dees weey, or ah kin talk lahk dis if I wanna, or I can fucking talk with a fucking rhythm that's fucking made out of fucking fucks because I've realized that swearing sounds better when done with a fucking rhythm even if you fucking repeat it cause I'm a fucking fuck, demonstrating the kind of fucking language this fucking argument would have fucking ended in if it had been allowed to take its bloody bleeding course. And if you read that enough, you'll find it's one complete sentence with a meaning.

Oh yes, also, I failed out of community college, I taught myself to do this for fun. Because it was fun for me to learn it that way. And now I do it on purpose.

Prompt: Respond in kind, using similar language, similar accents, with another dry-meta-humor-based point on writing, so we shall determine who is doing this on purpose and who is not.

Edit: It's quiet, see? Because then you can use language for any context without it having to mean anything, so it just flows.

edited 29th May '16 2:05:50 PM by Wheezy

Project progress: The Adroan (102k words), The Pigeon Witch, (40k). Done but in need of reworking: Yume Hime, (50k)
SabresEdge Show an affirming flame from a defense-in-depth Since: Oct, 2010
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#27797: May 29th 2016 at 2:08:53 PM

shut down argument before it becomes a battle

That right there? That's doing it wrong, and I will stand by that point.

I don't care about however you got there. Debate and disagreement are going to be part of any public space (like this one). If you say something in a public space and you get pushback, that's well within the bounds of civility and toleration. That is precisely what Tera and I are doing: we are disagreeing with you and hoping to debate that point, because it appears that both of us find it transparently wrong.

Also, while you're certainly allowed by the standards of civility to drop out of a debate because you don't wish to defend the point, to do so while claiming the moral high ground—falsely—is absurd, and we're allowed to point out that fact. For my part I find it an act of cowardice for someone to use the words "I don't want any disagreement here" as a Polish nobleman of old would use the words "liberum veto", in order to pre-emptively shut down debate.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.
TeraChimera Since: Oct, 2010
#27798: May 29th 2016 at 2:20:19 PM

I'm not arguing for argument's sake. I want to know how Before Sunrise is an adventure story. You're claiming it is, because every story is an adventure story in one way or another. I'm claiming it's not, because it's nothing but philosophical conversations. And like I said before, the adventure being metaphorical doesn't count.

edited 29th May '16 2:20:53 PM by TeraChimera

Wheezy (That Guy You Met Once) from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
(That Guy You Met Once)
#27799: May 29th 2016 at 2:39:09 PM

Thank you very much. But you misunderstand the point I was making, which is that, sure, that's fine, but the debate wasn't going there, I figured that I knew where the debate was going - towards "you dick, you dick, you dick," but in fancier words - so I decided to predict that and reframe it instead of continuing down that line. But at the same time, I didn't, because my inherent view of Gray-and-Grey Morality means neither is right, because either it shuts down or we learn something. But at the same time, I'm not a psychopath, guy at party last night. When you do that, it's just very easy to enter what they call "writer space."

Also, this entire thread is actually steering in the direction I wanted my original writing tips to go, which was to be able to explain this without sounding like a raging schizophrenic. Because I'm not. Maybe I just think I'm cleverer than I am.

However, if anything, I was wrong in my assumption that he was probably a Christian who wanted to protect the bible, because I was at a party night before last, that happened, and this guy kept yelling at me until it ruined it. So it colored my assumptions. I see that now. Why do you think I got to that conclusion? It's not what you think, I'd be willing to bet, but it will at least be interesting.

Bonus points: I set up a character via a simple form of suspense and then introduced him after foreshadowing his entry, then tied it all together at the end. Did you see that the first time reading it?

edited 29th May '16 2:47:57 PM by Wheezy

Project progress: The Adroan (102k words), The Pigeon Witch, (40k). Done but in need of reworking: Yume Hime, (50k)
KillerClowns Since: Jan, 2001
#27800: May 29th 2016 at 2:57:33 PM

A wise man once told me that regret can change the nature of a man. I leave the relevance of this comment to the preceding discussion a puzzle for the reader.

edited 29th May '16 3:09:52 PM by KillerClowns


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