"Is my character a Mary Sue" thread

Well with me that is my problem with killing off people that I like in a story. I didn't word that right to indicate that.

My characters all have long lives, but that's because I have a very deep fear of growing old, so I like using characters that are either very long liven, or keep running into things that set the biological clock back.

My Villain Protagonist got a 34.

Trickster Mentor got a 48:

but I designed him to have Mary Sue traits which is why he's more a side character, special hitter.

Female Friend (I sure am creative at these names): Total: 19

Love interest: Total: 22

(This was actually a surprise, I figured she'd have less.)

The Vamp got:

Total: 45

She was designed as the temptation of flesh to my Villain Protagonist (Read: fan service) in the Hero's journey so I was expecting a high score, though it though her's would be higher.

The fact that wearing black is here kinda screws my story as all character have black in their school uniforms.

edited 13th Apr '11 6:03:57 PM by Vyctorian

It should be noted that one can get away with more 'Sueishness' if the character in question isn't the main character.

Yeah, I've noticed I can get pretty Sue-ish features into side characters. My incredibly overpowered characters get sent to the background and a low-speaking role...

I fuss over Mary Sue-ness sometimes. Well my character Aurus, mainly. Though when I asked people who read my comic, they say Aurus gets his butt kicked for being obnoxious too much to be a Sue. But sometimes I worry he's too obnoxious. My boyfriend thinks Aurus is incredibly obnoxious and immature. He thinks I'm too attached to my characters, but I can't write about characters I don't love.

One of my characters, who is supposed to be the Ace got a lower score than the other, non-Acey characters. (Although they all got between 18-24).

So I guess I'm doing it wrong... or right? Why must my characters be so well-balanced and flawed?

Okay, I'm going to say this one more time... How powerful your characters are has nothing - nothing! What! So! Ever! to do with whether they are Sues or not. Sue-ishness is entirely about the amount of favor they get from the author. Being superhumanly powerful can be a sign of that, yeah - and even if they aren't Sues there's still other problems possible - but they do not mean the same thing.

Apologies for picking on your post like that, but if there is just one thing I want to do in this thread, it's to try to kill this concept dead. Seriously, I can't begin to say how sick I am of hearing people say "this guy is so powerful, so he must be a Marty Stu!"

I guess Boring Invincible Hero fits better for some of my must-never-be-the-star characters.

Where were you when I wrote non-canon roleplay in the Expanded Universe of Star Wars? People complained of my guys apparent 'power level' in my own non-server(meaning separate but related) roleplay, comparing it to their characters where not appropriate. [we were using a total conversion mod of Freelancer for our roleplay game]

Apparently my idea of a Jedi Knight's power was their idea of a High Council Jedi Master's power. Everyone was scaled proportionally though...

edit: added another arrow, someone got in a post before me.

Anyway, I see what you are saying, and I cannot agree enough not just from seeing your point, but experiencing it.

edited 14th Apr '11 5:11:45 AM by jasonwill2

You know what? Never mind.

edited 13th Apr '11 10:25:49 PM by TheGunheart

You know, what exactly is this thread about anymore? Discussing the Mary Sue phenomenon? Discussing whose characters were and weren't Sues? I really don't know any more. Yay, thread drift.

Also, utterly pedantic comment: unless you're secretly a Star Wars EU writer incognito among us, there really was no need to call it a "non-canon" roleplay.

edited 13th Apr '11 10:15:55 PM by nrjxll

No. But it is a very significant factor.

There's a reason we have the God-Mode Sue trope.

Of course it's a significant factor. I'm just tired of seeing "powerful character" - or even "over-powerful character" - used virtually as a synonym for Sue. It's not, although I'd say it probably is one of "Sturgeon's Tropes".

The reason its there is that there is rarely a good reason for this power to be theirs.

It never actually serves a purpose. Much the same as royal blood.

A shame about the whole royal blood thing. Lovely little political device there, there's a few good ways to go with it.

It can work if you assume breeding carries certain genetics. Usually it carries over inbred genetics, but royal blood could carry good things as well, theoretically.

Thing is, a cliche used well is still used well.

Well, if royal blood is randomly thrown in in a character's background, that's sueish, but really - being a member of royalty and nobility has no narrative purpose? I think that would be rather rare. Hell, for some characters you need at least nobility.

Which is why I find the appropriate questions in the Sue tests a bit... well, I can see where they are coming from. But it's not always Sueism, and technically you would even have to click it when the character comes from a mere knightly family, that is hardly more than gentry in terms of English history...

Mind, I don't want to complain in general here, as some have. I think it is important to watch not to slip into Mary Sue territory.

Rather rare? Not really- the points brought over by nobility can usually be covered otherwise, or dropped completely, without overtly affecting the story.

Which is not to say that the 'never' was not hyperbole. For example, Belgarion, from the Belgariad series by David Eddings, had both massive magical power and noble blood, both of which were plot-relevant and served to further the plot in ways that would have otherwise been much trickier and more Sueish to fulfill.

However, as a general rule of thumb, unless you need either an army, a kingdom to rule or a lot of stature behind your character (all of which are not inherently good or bad things, but should make a writer cautious), then royal blood should not be needed for your character.

Little note- there is a difference between 'royal' and 'noble'.

edited 14th Apr '11 7:36:03 AM by CyganAngel

Well, you can have an inverse situation based on the same concept; a character's royal blood makes them a target for pretenders to the throne and thus forces them into povertous hiding or somesuch. Or they're one of several legitimate heirs to a throne. Or everything's just peachy, but they have socialist values and abhor the concept of taking monarchic power.

There's a fair few things you can do.

However, sometimes your character does need to be nobility. A knight is nobility by default. If not he may be a fighter, but by definition not a knight. And even if not a knight, the best chance that a character has had fighting training in a medieval world is if he is of noble background. Lowly peasants will usually not get trained with the sword.

I'm not talking about nobility on a political level here. As said, it doesn't even need to be high nobility. I'm talking about nobility as an estate with special rights and a special place in society, which gives characters of nobility backgrounds and plot hooks that are just not replaceable by characters not of nobility.

edited 14th Apr '11 7:44:10 AM by Octo

Yes. But can you honestly say that plot device is the easiest, or even best way to pull off these plots?

The royal blood situation works best in political works (such as the aforementioned one of several legitimate heir plots). Otherwise, it raises questions like:

a) Why does no-one consider that any peasants, any at all, may be sympathetic to their cause? Unless your citizens are completely apathetic...

b) If assassins are after you, what makes you think you're any safer alone in lands you've never learned to traverse on your own, rather than safe in a castle, surrounded by guards and people who taste your food?

And even as such- why do most of these plots require royal blood, rather than merely noble blood?

^ Ehhhh, not really. Sword training was given to soldiers and common guards, money and stature to merchants, etc etc

edited 14th Apr '11 7:46:41 AM by CyganAngel

I should make my position clear: I'm arguing specifically against giving your character a royal background, not merely a noble background.

To answer all your queries: because plot device! For instance, if your royal character fears death, perhaps they go into self-imposed exile in a country where they hold no sway whatsoever? Or are taken in by another royal family so they can use him/her as a puppet after he/she's reinstated? Or perhaps they have a sentimental connection to a distant land and use that to avoid taking up responsibility until the last moment?