Follow TV Tropes

Following

General Star Wars Animated Series

Go To

montagohalcyon Rook from It's grim up north. Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Rook
#2551: Nov 16th 2014 at 10:52:06 AM

I don't recall him petting the dog or admiring anything not violence-related anywhere in the show.

Well, there was the bit in "The Box" where Bane saves disguised Kenobi, who he'd already shown great distrust for, for no better reason than "if you're gonna kill him, do it like a man" but I think that was it.

I happen to like Traviss' books but I recognize this is an unpopular and heretical opinion. Realistically, I think the mind-control-chip makes more sense but since it probably retcons any previous examples or the possibility in future works of clones disobeying I prefer her version.

Only the sun has stopped.
GahmahRaan From a world where trees shoot Force Lightning. from Krishar Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
From a world where trees shoot Force Lightning.
#2552: Nov 16th 2014 at 11:06:47 AM

If that one of interview in regards to the fate of the clones after Order 66 is an indication, it's implied that not all of the clones were brainwashed when the Order was given, just the ones who fought very close to their Jedi generals; otherwise, the ones that weren't as close to their generals really were Just Following Orders. I suspect that chip first submits a subliminal message, but should the clone hesitate to follow it, it brainwashes them, hence Tup's headaches before he killed Tiplar (or that just be a side-effect of the malfunction)

And admittedly, I actually prefer the Manchurian Agent explanation over the contingency order. Aside from the latter having signs of Traviss's blatant bias against Jedi (that just suggested most of the clones hated the Jedi), it better justifies why some of them turned so quickly (and without Palpatine calling them over comlink) when they fought so closely and were more or less friends (particularly Cody and Bly), and it mitigates the chances of there being too many Order 66 survivors. I can understand some people being disappointed with the idea that this also mitigates the chances of any clones refusing to follow it, but what's not to say some other clones had some glitched chips (despite Palpatine's and Dooku's attempts to correct what wrong with Tup's chip and possibly the more independent thinking that comes as a result of the Jedi's influence) or developed some Heroic Willpower?

And that the clones were allowed to have their own bar on Coruscant (where ANYONE is allowed in) suggests that the Jedi - despite their questionable decision to lead them - were trying to get them civil rights for after the war and away from the socially darwinistic Kaminoans.

edited 16th Nov '14 8:10:32 PM by GahmahRaan

Gahmah's Link Tree: https://linktr.ee/GahmahRaan
Windona Guten Morgen from Trying to leave Gotham (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Guten Morgen
#2553: Nov 16th 2014 at 3:52:10 PM

Also, having the clones molded to be generally obedient is well and good... but obedient to whom? If they were designed to just obey orders in general, the Separatists could easily order them to not shoot. There's a difference between moral graying that's logical, and moral graying just to be Darker and Edgier.

And given Filoni's comments about the fate of the clones, I'm hoping that a surviving one appears in Rebels (appropriately aged up by 30 years, of course) because it would make for an interesting dynamic, especially since I doubt the chips would be public knowledge.

My AO3
maxwellelvis Mad Scientist Wannabe from undisclosed location Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: In my bunk
Mad Scientist Wannabe
#2554: Nov 16th 2014 at 5:00:03 PM

If the 501st weren't given the chips, then that means

1. Commander Cody was acting completely of his own free will when he shot down Obi-Wan

2. The clones who slaughtered the Jedi at the Temple were not brainwashed, they did that of their own free will, even the children-murdering.

3. The 501st knew about the order to kill all Jedi, and knew it was going to be issued at the end of the war.

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#2555: Nov 16th 2014 at 5:03:17 PM

Was reading "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" last week and it mentioned that some clones (re: the ones that couldn't bring themselves to follow orders and kill their Jedi partners) are "misprogrammed," which I take to mean the chips of some clones malfunctioned.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (USA) (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#2556: Nov 16th 2014 at 5:04:13 PM

Cody wasn't part of the 501st.

Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.
maxwellelvis Mad Scientist Wannabe from undisclosed location Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: In my bunk
Mad Scientist Wannabe
#2557: Nov 16th 2014 at 5:13:46 PM

Then what was he doing on Utapau? The 501st was sent there.

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
BadWolf21 The Fastest Man Alive Since: May, 2010
The Fastest Man Alive
#2558: Nov 16th 2014 at 5:25:09 PM

No. The 501st were Anakin's personal troops, and had blue-painted armour. Cody was in Obi-Wan's service.

Windona Guten Morgen from Trying to leave Gotham (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Guten Morgen
#2559: Nov 16th 2014 at 5:48:22 PM

@maxwell- I'm just saying, that without the chips, the troop that would make the most sense to carry out the order would be the 501st. There still would be fridge logic about them obeying it, but the Krell arc in TCW made it more likely for that troop to believe in rogue Jedi, and they wouldn't be shooting down their commanding officer. Doesn't mean that it would make absolute sense for the 501st to not be chipped. (Also, the Order 66 arc in TCW was with the 501st)

My AO3
BadWolf21 The Fastest Man Alive Since: May, 2010
The Fastest Man Alive
#2560: Nov 16th 2014 at 6:52:42 PM

the troop that would make the most sense to carry out the order would be the 501st.

the Krell arc in TCW made it more likely for that troop to believe in rogue Jedi

I dunno... Yeah, the Krell incident proved to them that Jedi can go bad, but I still think they wouldn't buy that the Jedi are all bad. Order 66 isn't "kill rogue Jedi" it's "all Jedi are rogue, kill them". I can't see Rex being cool with taking an order like that at face value.

they wouldn't be shooting down their commanding officer

I would think that Anakin would be at the top of Palpatine's hit list, actually. If Anakin doesn't take the bait and fall to the Dark Side, then he's a huge liability. Anakin only turns during the incident that gives Palpatine the excuse to execute the order. And he would have had to do it whether Anakin had been there or not, because he had three dead Jedi in his office, and one flying out his window (assuming he managed to beat Windu on his own).

Windona Guten Morgen from Trying to leave Gotham (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Guten Morgen
#2561: Nov 16th 2014 at 7:32:44 PM

[up]I was working in the context of canon, and saying 'more likely'- not 'they absolutely certainly totally would be on board with that'. Basically, I'm a fan of the chip idea, and I was trying to point out why the idea works so much better than 'they're just made to be obedient'.

And the situation would have been 'all Jedi went rogue', as that's canonically what Palps used as an excuse to the public for why the Jedi had to go down.

TLDR: Yeah, it doesn't make sense for the clones to execute Order 66 without the chips being there.

My AO3
BadWolf21 The Fastest Man Alive Since: May, 2010
The Fastest Man Alive
#2562: Nov 16th 2014 at 7:45:54 PM

I agree with you in a broad sense, but took issue with some of the details. :P

Windona Guten Morgen from Trying to leave Gotham (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Guten Morgen
#2563: Nov 17th 2014 at 8:28:24 AM

[up]Fair enough, that's what fans do. Although I don't really disagree with you too much on the details.

And so much of why the Empire works depends on the public perception, and how it's manipulated to be way off about reality. I wonder how much Ezra actually knows about Empire Day, given that he was on the streets since he was 7.

My AO3
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: It's so nice to be turned on again
Brightness
#2564: Nov 19th 2014 at 12:10:37 PM

Just watched Gathering Forces Damn, Ezra's first Dark Side; I find comfort in watching the Inquisitor squirm. Also, I wonder who Fulcrum could possibly be, I've most definitely not ever seen ''that'' ship before; but, Bail Organa is a bit too obvious, and there's a fan theory going around that its actually Ahsoka.

Also, The Inquisitor's master will not be pleased? Shit's getting real.

I just noticed that "Sith" can be rearranged into "Shit".

edited 19th Nov '14 10:05:31 PM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph Congratulations! She/They
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#2565: Nov 19th 2014 at 3:08:38 PM

My personal head canon is that the chip functions as an override, and that it wears off after a few hours or days. After that the clones are in the same position Anakin was in after he cut of Windu's arm,they've burned the bridge and have no choice but to serve the Empire. Also any uprising would almost certainly lead to them fighting their brothers,and that fact alone would guarantee the loyalty of most clones. As for hating the Jedi, I think a large part of that a large part of that was the clones making up a justification for their actions in their heads.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Tyrannotitan Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#2566: Nov 20th 2014 at 5:09:43 PM

[up][up]Fulcrum as Ahsoka? Now that would definitely be a massive step to take. But anyway, Gathering Forces is probably one of the best episodes of the series in my opinion. It all got pretty dramatic actually, especially with Ezra losing it at Tseebo and the dark side moment, and a lot was teased too. Hope we also get to see who Fulcrum is soon, as well as what Tseebo actually knows about the fate of Ezra's parents. Also, I think Sabine might be starting to warm up to Ezra... wow, all of you guys are talking about deep complex things like clone troopers with Order 66 and villain characterisation and all I can add is silly romance stuff. What is wrong with me? XD

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#2567: Nov 20th 2014 at 7:33:10 PM

Nothing wrong with you. Not everyone thinks about the deeper stuff. We all think about what's important to us. Love tops that list for the majority of the human race.

TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: It's so nice to be turned on again
Brightness
#2568: Nov 20th 2014 at 10:49:37 PM

Love aint silly, love is a pretty cool thing. I mean, it redeems Anakin and other cool stuff; like allow us to exist and shit.

PSN ID: FateSeraph Congratulations! She/They
Malchus Since: Jan, 2001
#2569: Nov 20th 2014 at 11:35:54 PM

[up][up][up]Nothing wrong with feeling shippy. As long as it doesn't turn vitriolic, anyway. That way lies the dark side of fandom.

edited 20th Nov '14 11:36:22 PM by Malchus

Yeah, that avatar's a 'Shop of my real face.
Windona Guten Morgen from Trying to leave Gotham (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Guten Morgen
#2570: Nov 21st 2014 at 5:12:56 AM

I wonder if Ezra will have more dark moments. He already has a bit of a storyline in fighting his own inner demons, so it'd be cool to see how he will deal- and if it will influence/be influenced by the difference between the New Jedi Order and the old one. (Because let's face it; Ezra is like Luke in that he has a background in being a normal person, whereas Kanan and every Jedi during the last thousand years besides Anakin were raised in the temple. Ezra's approach is going to be different)

My AO3
illegalcheese X-14: Killer Cheese Since: Apr, 2010
X-14: Killer Cheese
#2571: Nov 21st 2014 at 10:54:00 AM

The coolest thing this series could do is set Ezra up to be the main antagonist of the new trilogy.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Werebazs from Hungary Since: Sep, 2011
#2573: Nov 21st 2014 at 11:45:10 AM

[up][up] and [up] Yeaah, let's not go there. Legends have attempted to recreate Anakin/Vader's story a couple of times, and failed miserably on each occasion. Try being a bit more original. I mean I know, there's nothing original about Star Wars, but copying itself would be too much.

illegalcheese X-14: Killer Cheese Since: Apr, 2010
X-14: Killer Cheese
#2574: Nov 21st 2014 at 12:44:13 PM

I meant within the context of the show itself, not the mythos as a whole; in that sense it would be little more than a retread considering the noted similarities to Luke and Anakin already.

I just meant it'd be cool to have the protagonists of the show fail spectacularly in the long run. Anakin's fall was never fleshed out in TCW to that extent, I don't think.

Windona Guten Morgen from Trying to leave Gotham (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Guten Morgen
#2575: Nov 21st 2014 at 2:34:06 PM

[up]Actually I think TCW did a great job in fleshing Anakin out; small moments, little changes, less trust in Obi-Wan and the council... they couldn't have him fall completely or really hate everyone due to it leading to Revenge of the Sith, but it showed him getting darker throughout the seasons. s2 Anakin choked Poggle; s5 seemed ready to beat/choke Ventress to death, even though both were (supposedly, in Ventress' case) behind Ahsoka being about to die.

For Ezra, I want a storyline about him struggling to synthesize the teachings of the Old Order (from Kanan), and make them his own. I want Ezra to struggle, and Kanan to struggle in teaching him, because they come from vastly different worlds and are trying to understand each other. I want Kanan have issues describing things about the Force and Jedi that come instinctually because Kanan was raised around it, knowing it, and understanding it whereas Ezra is an outsider. I want there to be culture clash, because after 25000 years of history, the last 1000 of which practically all children spent until they were Padawans in the Temple surrounded by other initiates/Jedi, for the Jedi to have been a culture/people that were wiped out and people don't really understand this. I want Ezra to struggle with the selfishness that has been ingrained because it was what let him survive, yet be pulled back by the attachment and love that Jedi traditionally aren't supposed to feel. In essence, I want his story arc to show the beginnings of how the Jedi in the sequel trilogy will differ from those of the prequel trilogy, and why.

My AO3

Total posts: 12,234
Top