Rename (alt titles crowner 2/24/12): Cute Shotaro Boy

Total posts: [133]
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1 Heatth26th Mar 2011 08:40:46 AM from Brasil , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
This trope is supposed to be a boy who acts like an adult, played for cute. Sometimes Wise Beyond Their Years, but this is not necessary (no one says the boy needs to succeed in his acting).

However, it is mostly used as Spear Counterpart of Token Loli or even as just 'cute boy'. Even the example list in its page, as well as its page image, use that definition. This is not surprising, considering the name is just 'cute little boy boy'. The random Gratuitous Japanese means nothing but 'cute boy' in this context. The name is completely non-indicative and would explain the misuses. It badly needs a rename and a clean up.

Created this thread because of a discussion in the Token Loli thread, starting here.

Damn, I messed up with the title. It should read 'Broken Title', not 'CuteShotaroBoy'.

edited 16th Apr '11 9:25:48 PM by Heatth

Cure Candy
Eh I thought this trope was named after Shotaro for Gigantor who is a perfect example of this trope as it's laid out (it's been years since I last watched it though.)

But yes I do agree that Cleanup is needed but maybe not a rename.

Also we really got to sort out Token Loli and this as spearcounterparts as there are examples of girls who fit Cute Shotaro Boy as the trope is laid out and there are Token Lolis (as in fanservice and love interests) Males in BL and Reverse Harems and other places. There is an overlap of examples but they shouldn't be connected like that. But no one wanted to listen to me in the other thread.

edited 26th Mar '11 9:24:27 AM by Raso

3 Heatth26th Mar 2011 08:57:26 AM from Brasil , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
[up]I suppose that trope namer make sense, although I've never heard of that boy. But even if it is the case, it is still a problem. 'Shotaro' is a very common boy name and the fandom associate it to 'cute boy' (although the name has no relation with 'shota', as far I know).

There is loads of clear misuses that are most likely caused by the name. Why wouldn't we rename it?
Cure Candy
It's not the name that's the problem right now it's defining it clearly vs Token Loli. And sorting things with Tagalong Kid and other tropes. All of them are defining each other differently which is what's making the misuse. Token Loli even calls this it's spear counterpart and it's not.
5 Heatth26th Mar 2011 09:11:20 AM from Brasil , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
The definition is just broken in the last few paragraphs (although I think it is overly specific in the first few). And it does not even mention Token Loli. Which is appropriate, giving it has no relations with it or whatever.
6 chihuahua026th Mar 2011 09:18:42 AM from Standoff, USA , Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
Writer's Welcome Wagon
This trope is supposed to be a boy who acts like an adult, played for cute.

It is?

edited 26th Mar '11 12:58:26 PM by chihuahua0

7 Heatth26th Mar 2011 09:51:38 AM from Brasil , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Yes, it is. Read the first paragraph and the laconic. Well, the description is a bit more specific, but it is certainly not 'any cute boy'.

For quoting, open with [quoteblock] and close with [/quoteblock] (using two '[' instead). There is a Markup Help in the add post page, upper left corner.
Perky Goth
There are some examples that are more or less valid even by what the trope is supposed to mean. (I specifically added Pierre from Harvest Moon in light of that meaning, and mentioning where he diverges — the reactions of others to what seems to be an unusually mature young boy are not as dismissive as normal. Can't vouch for anyone else, as I've mostly ignored the trope due to its schizophrenic nature.)

Honestly, I think adding a "Token Shota" trope for just generically cute little boys that are there for the Moe-appeal Fanservice as a proper Spear Counterpart to Token Loli, then more clearly delineating this as specifically about the Shotaro Kaneda archetype might do it.
"That's ridiculous. What would a walrus do with a magic bag?" Pokeamida
Cure Candy
[up] Token Shota would be Tagalong Kid or a spear to Token Loli (which Token Shota is a redirect to.)

edited 14th Apr '11 11:08:41 PM by Raso

Further suggest removing the Gratuitous Japanese from the title.
Cute Shotaro Boy the description is not a counterpart to Token Loli. The Spear counterpart to Token Loli is... Token Loli (it's technically not gender specific, although it's written in a female specific manner simply because they are overwhelmingly the more common gender.)

Here is what I think needs to be done to fix this trope:

1: Figure out what other tropes do we have that cover precocious children that take responsibility and try to act grownup. (We already have quite a few- The Linus, Wise Beyond Their Years, ect).

2: Decide if Cute Shotaro Boy is really a different enough trope to be worth keeping. If not cut it.

3: If it is worth keeping, decide if it should be gender neutral or not.

4: Rename to prevent future confusion. The name is what keeps making people think it's related to Token Loli, so the name has got to go.

edited 17th Apr '11 8:08:11 AM by Sackett

Together Forever...
This is a more gender-neutral trope than Token Loli (which is actually barely a trope itself...), though I think that its more commonly female in anime, though perhaps male in other medium.

The point at hand here is the huge gap between age and competence, the character is way, way below the Competence Zone set by the rest of the characters.

Edit: And Cute Shotaro Boy is an astonishingly terrible name. Not at all what I thought the trope was going to be when I first saw it.

edited 17th Apr '11 12:36:41 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna

Cure Candy
This is what I had written down as a distaff counterpart to this trope and the core parts of this trope.
Distaff Cute Shotaro Boy

These young girls are in situations far over their head played as Rule of Cute. These girls are always trying their best, they might be living on their own, holding a job such as Child Teacher or dealing with a Useless Parent or pressured by their parents to do tons of work or take over the family business. Possibly Wise Beyond Their Years or are trying to be as there are moments when their armor cracks leading to breakdown or showing their real age They might be a proto Yamato Nadeshiko.

Distaff to Cute Shotaro Boy See also Abusive Parents, Parental Abandonment Iron Woobie and The Woobie.
The most important point is the personality they have to be kind of serious, always have to be trying their best and giving it their all and attempting to put a face of Wise Beyond Their Years even if they are not which can crack leading to a breakdown / The Woobie moment or a real moment where they lose themselves and act their age and have fun. Girls tend to get The Woobie moments more than the guys. ([1] [2] These two pages from Negima describe the trope pretty well IMO and explain what girls see in him.)

The trope name isn't a bad one but it can lead to confusion "Cute" it has to be played for that. "Shotaro" is pretty much the Ur-Example in anime as he was out saving the world with his robot buddy and acted like this (always in a suit too) and "boy" well that's required too. The major issue is the character did get the raving Fan Girls on him so much so that liking boys in general became Shotacon in the same way Kirk/Spock became a slash fic. I am not opposed to a rename due to massive misuse and other issues but I do understand where and why this is named it.

edited 17th Apr '11 1:36:11 PM by Raso

[up] Please stop using "spear counterpart" to refer to the female counterpart. It's confusing me.

The female counterpart is the Distaff Counterpart. Spear Counterpart = male.
Cure Candy
Sorry didn't know that... Learn something new everyday I was just using it because that's what Token Loli said it was... Why didnt someone tell me sooner? I had been using it for weeks in the Token Loli thread...sad
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Whatever we do with this, the name will need to change. "Shotaro" means nothing to me, except for making me associate to Shotacon, which this isn't about.

And if we change this, we'll need to change Naked Shotaro Boy as well.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
Cure Candy
[up] Woah ok yeah thats probably a big reason we have misuse here... people just seem to think this is just any really cute / lovable / Moe little boy.

Now really do we want to keep this as its being used as and then split off the actual description while making it gender neutral?

edited 18th Apr '11 3:04:26 AM by Raso

18 shimaspawn18th Apr 2011 09:35:39 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
[up] Like I've said in the past. There is a consensus on the wiki that the idea of this trope is an art style thing, not a personality thing.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Cure Candy
[up] So we rewrite it to fit the Moe little boy and create a trope for whats described and go though the wicks moving the correct wicks to the new trope (of which I am not sure exactly how many are correct).

The question is how do we want to define and name the new trope since it is pretty much gender neutral although girls get more The Woobie moments vs the guys and the guys get more its fun time moments than the girls.

The archetype personality for this that most male anime examples stem from Shotaro in Gigantor hence the trope name. Negi being the most prominent example of him lately and there are plenty of girls that fit this as well.

However Setsuna brought up a good point that not all examples of the "Kid in an adult situation" fit the personality (I would say 90%+ do though) the personality and situation tend to draw a lot of girls to said manga.

So a Super Trope with Sub-Trope?

edited 18th Apr '11 10:44:59 AM by Raso

Cure Candy
Nobody seems to care but this is what I got for the new Cute Shotaro Boy.

Polar opposite of Bratty Half-Pint. These calm little boys run entirely off Rule of Cute and usually draw a large female fanbase. When placed in a show with everyone else an adult they might be Tagalong Kid or Token Shota. When placed in a situation that is way over their head such as holding a job they are New Trope.

Named after Shotaro from Giagantor who is loved for being in this trope much that it became part of the pourmantou Shotacon as a spear counterpart to Lolicon.

See also Moe, Cheerfully Cute Child, And Keet the extreme Genki Guy version of this.

Should we get a crowner going for options? (nobody seems tocare though)

  1. Clean up all misuse of Cute Shotaro Boy. Which is a hell of a lot.
  2. Split off described trope to something new and rewrite.
  3. If split cover everyone that is in this situation.
  4. or split supertrope for the situation and subtrope for the Shotaro Archetype which is personality + situation.
  5. or keep them gender split

edited 18th Apr '11 10:23:51 PM by Raso

I think everyone has ignored my list of steps that I think are needed, so I'll repeat just step 1:

1: Figure out what other tropes do we have that cover precocious children that take responsibility and try to act grownup. (We already have quite a few- The Linus, Wise Beyond Their Years, ect).

We need to do that first before we can figure out where in the mix Cute Shotaro Boy fits.
22 AnoSa6th May 2011 02:48:08 PM from Somewhere?
Ano Sa
just bugs meWe did this already. It kept its name. Do we really have nothing better to do?

ideaLet's go with the basic idea that this is the young male moe character. Why not table any discussion of supertrope/subtropes until we know if any particular flavor of Cute Shotaro Boy actually is its own trope yet? First figuring out what the distinct subtypes we've got examples of here are (possibly even doing a type list a la Anti-Hero for easier sorting) would be a good place to start, if for no other reason then it being rather silly to suggest having subtropes without some idea what they are.
Yeah... we did this already, and everyone was in agreement that the name needed to go.

Then we all lost interest and nothing was done.
Title? What Title?
Do not underestimate the power of "What the fark is a shotaro"? This title is meaningless. Utterly and completely meaningless. Unless and only unless you are a part of the anime community.

This thing definitely needs a rename. Its as non-indicative as non-indicative can be, and the Gratuitious Japanese is simply unnecessary.

edited 9th May '11 4:46:49 AM by Worldmaker

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
Together Forever...

Well, no. The real problem is that the trope name, even when you know what the Japanese means, is non-indicative of the actual trope.

Like I said earlier, when I first clicked the link for Cute Shotaro Boy, I did not get the trope I expected, which was the spear counterpart of Token Loli (another trope which has issues, but thats neither here nore there)

Alternative Titles: Cute Shotaro Boy 2
24th Feb '12 9:33:44 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
Previous crowner voted to rename Cute Shotaro Boy.

Trope is "young child who is considered cute because they try to act mature and responsible beyond their years".

Total posts: 133
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