Split trope into Superego and Logical Alien: The Spock

Deadlock Clock: 28th Apr 2012 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [39]
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Tempus Omnia Iudicat
Currently, The Spock forms part of the Power Trio with The Kirk and The McCoy. However, unlike the other two, The Spock is not defined by its purpose within the Power Trio. The Spock defines a character archetype that refers to someone with an "alien" way of think that is rooted in logic. These characters often do not find themselves in a Power Trio and it is theoretically possible for them to take another role within it. This page is being used very often to describe any character that acts as the Superego in the Power Trio without regard as to whether they fit the "logical alien" part. This also shows that not all characters who are the Superego are also The Spock. Therefore, I believe it is best to split this trope into separate pages dealing with the Superego within the Power Trio and the logical alien archetype.
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2 savage28th May 2011 10:29:52 PM from an underground bunker
Followed this from a link to The Kirk, found it odd myself. If it's part of the Power Trio as the Superego in defiance of the group's Id, it should just be that: always taking the most logical course of action, as opposed to the Id's wanting to take quick action to right wrongs.

All the stuff about alien culture seems unnecessary. I haven't checked the examples, but it probably needs a split.

I think, to be honest, that these suffer from being character named tropes. Ego, Superego, and Id works much better to describe their roles, even if Kirk, Spock, and Mc Coy are ultimate examples of the archetypes. Also, in the new Star Trek film, Mc Coy and Kirk seem to have switched roles: Kirk's the brash, impulsive one while Mc Coy acts in a way to mediate between him and Spock.

I suppose we should figure out whether it needs a rename though.

edited 28th May '11 10:30:22 PM by savage

3 NoirGrimoir28th May 2011 11:32:34 PM from San Diego, CA , Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
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This looks like a really good idea to me. Rename The Spock to The Superego and fix up the description, and have The Spock redirect to it and make a new Logical Alien trope for the actual character type, rather than their position in the Freudian Trio.

edited 28th May '11 11:32:42 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Agreed, I've been thinking this for a while. The Spock has come to refer to a character who is unshakably logical, intelligent, and emotionless. Like Mr. Spock himself. It's possible for someone to fit The Spock character type without instantly falling into the Superego position as well, and vice-versa, and it's important that we don't mix them up since they don't bear the same connotations.
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Yup, sounds like a plan.
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Something similar should be done to The Kirk and The McCoy, as well.
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[up]. Do we need to open a new TRS thread for those tropes?
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8 Deboss2nd Jun 2011 10:12:07 AM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I agree with this plan.
9 StubbyPenguin2nd Jun 2011 10:16:44 PM from Earth, Sol System , Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
I'm for the split, or at least just the new trope page, but against the rename.

The name is fine. This renaming objection extends to The Kirk and The Spock as well.

edited 2nd Jun '11 10:17:00 PM by StubbyPenguin

It was either a penguin or a panda, but the choice is far less black and white than you would think!

10 Deboss2nd Jun 2011 10:18:59 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I think the logical alien bit might be covered under Space Elf. Maybe.
11 StubbyPenguin2nd Jun 2011 10:25:41 PM from Earth, Sol System , Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Looking a little closer at the article, I would say that there probably should be a split between example that fit into power trios and ones that are just characters are a really logical (and not necessarily alien).

I would say a better new trope would be for that would be called Mr Logic, or something like that. I'm not sure, but I think we already have something like that anyway.

edited 2nd Jun '11 10:25:59 PM by StubbyPenguin

It was either a penguin or a panda, but the choice is far less black and white than you would think!

12 Deboss2nd Jun 2011 10:48:58 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
We could go with The Logical One since it's almost always a member of a group and that's the thing they do in the group.
13 StubbyPenguin3rd Jun 2011 07:49:04 AM from Earth, Sol System , Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
That's better.

So keep The Spock as is, or rather, fix its description, and then move all the examples of characters that are logical and not part of the Freudian Trio to The Logical One
It was either a penguin or a panda, but the choice is far less black and white than you would think!

14 MousaThe143rd Jun 2011 07:56:27 AM from Northern Virginia , Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
I agree with this.
So if the name The Spock is retained, how do we prevent future misuse, which is pretty much guaranteed, IMO, especially if the core of the Spock character as most people understand it is split off onto another trope?
[up] The best way? Probably scrub the wicks, clean up the examples, clarify the description, and assign a curator.
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17 StubbyPenguin13th Jul 2011 03:27:49 PM from Earth, Sol System , Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Well this discussion has died down.

Looking at the way things currently are, Keeping the names is more work than it's worth. I'm be for the renames now. As far as The Spock misuse goes we may just want to make that a redirect to a new trope "The Logical One".

It makes my whole body sting to know that I've agreed to name three tropes after constructs of a theory that almost all of modern psychology has proven wrong...
It was either a penguin or a panda, but the choice is far less black and white than you would think!

18 Xtifr13th Jul 2011 03:40:21 PM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
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[up] I don't think it's any worse than having tropes like Four-Element Ensemble that are (loosely) based on theories that have been discredited for longer than psychology has existed.
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Bump. With the recent renaming of character-named tropes, I figure this should be brought up, along with The Kirk and The McCoy.
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20 Twentington10th Oct 2011 11:21:44 PM from Somewhere , Relationship Status: Desperate
Bump again. Nothing's happening here and this thread started in April. Let's get a move on!
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21 blackcat23rd Nov 2011 10:28:29 PM , Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Clocking, if no action is taken, let us lock this one as unresolved for the time being.
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22 Spark923rd Nov 2011 10:41:01 PM from Castle Wulfenbach , Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
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Wait, we have a plan and Eddie says it's good. So why not do that? Or if people aren't sure, at least get a page action crowner.
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23 Firebert24th Nov 2011 12:10:49 AM from Somewhere in Illinois
That One Guy
Based on the previous discussion in the thread, a crowner on the matter sounds good to me as well.
If we are going to rename them all, let's go with The Logical One, The Emotional One, and something similar for The Kirk, please. I like the names we have because they're so much easier to remember than Ego, Superego, and Id. I can never remember which of those is which. If we have to rename, I'd rather it be to something as easy to remember and differentiate as what we have now.
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Well, since The Kirk balanced the logic against the emotion, The Balanced One ?

Since The Kirk was supposed to come up with something neither came up with on their own, The Third One ?

Since The Kirk was the one who mediated their conflicts, The Mediator ?

Since The Kirk was split between logic and emotion, The Split One ?

Page Action: The Spock
25th Apr '12 9:15:44 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:

Total posts: 39
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