Definition Doesn't Match Common Usage: Preaching To The Choir

I have never posted in this section of the forum, so forgive me if I am doing it incorrectly.

Preaching to the Choir, our definition:

If a book or any other media product follows a distinct philosophical, political or religious slant, then people who agree with that slant will often like it despite any flaws it has.

Conversely, people who disagree with its message will often reject it out of hand, regardless of how well written it is.

Keep in mind, however, that many people neither agree or disagree with a message before presented with an argument that they find convincing. The purpose of many of the examples of this trope can legitimately be said in at least a small part to convince the undecided, rather than change someone's mind. Still, the "preaching to the choir" effect is noticeable.

Also keep in mind this does not mean everyone in a group feels that way about works.

Contrast Don't Shoot The Message, which is about disliking a work because of its style but not its message.

Preaching to the Choir definition on other websites:

"Preaching to the choir", "preaching to the chorus", and "preaching to the converted" all mean the same thing, that the people you are trying to convince already believe in what you are saying.

Meaning To commend an opinion to those who already accept it.

to talk about something with a group of people who already agree with you preach to the converted

I think the definition or the trope itself needs to be reworked. Never really altered a definition before, so I thought I'd bring it here.

EDIT: Crap, I only now realize this should go in the Trope REPAIR SHOP, not the Trope Talk section. Can a mod please switch it?

edited 9th Mar '11 12:59:50 PM by MrAHR

Welcome to my parlor AHR.

Anyhow, I agree that something should be done with the description so that it matches the colloquial term it was supposed to mean.

Oh, and can we get a transference over here? How does one request that?

I think you report it, but I'm scared of doing it, in case I'm wrong >.>

Just click the holler button and ask to have the thread moved/locked.

Already did. Just waiting.

See, they don't bite. Unless you piss them off or something. In which case you're likely to get beaten with a bag of oranges. But that's beside the point.

I generally support using the common definition for pages. Selling To The Choir might work.

The definition and the common usage are still at odds with one another.

I'm not seeing the disconnect between the common definition and the way we're using it, honestly. Common definition: "the people you are supposedly trying to convince already agree with you." Ours: "People like stuff that has a message or bias or viewpoint they argee with, and don't like stuff they don't agree with."

That said, I'm not sure how this is a trope really outside of advertising, maybe. It's more about marketing and appeal, rather than storytelling.

Maybe it's related to An Aesop? But then it would just be Trivia or YMMV trope about which demographics like it.

I think it's the opposite angle. As I understand it, "preaching to the choir" generally is used to mean "you can stop trying to convince us, we already agree". Whereas this page means "people seek out like-minded opinions".

Yep, I think Spark 9 is right here. What the current Preaching to the Choir trope describes sounds more like something related to selective exposure to me than actually Preaching to the Choir. I think commercials making assumptions about your views on certain issues and being less persuasive because of it seem different from trying to convince people who already agree with you.

edited 3rd Aug '11 5:44:02 PM by LouieW

Bump. This has not been resolved yet: this trope is named after a common real-world phrase, but the trope basically means the opposite of what the phrase does.

I don't see a problem. The two definitions are closely related. And in the case of an aesop, they overlap.

edited 24th Oct '11 7:12:46 AM by storyyeller

Agreed with Spark9 about the name not matching the definition.

The definitions may be similar, but they're different enough to cause massive misuse. This is not a good thing.

There is now a single proposition rename crowner for this trope here.

Title should be changed to "Confirmation bias" because that is what it is actually about. It was created through Citogenesis.

edited 24th Nov '11 7:04:09 AM by doommech33

Given the support for a rename, there is now an alternative titles crowner for this trope here. Feel free to add names as you see fit.

The only issue that I can see with changing the name to Confirmation Bias is that Confirmation Bias already has a page on the wiki. Would it make sense to merge them?

The two pages look pretty similar to me, so I'd say merging them would be the best course of action.

Question, though: would a new page for Preaching to the Choir which matches the actual use of the phrase in common parlance be created after such a merger (or, were it to go a different way, a rename)?

Oh, and shouldn't the single prop. crowner be closed now?

edited 29th Nov '11 5:27:46 PM by Osric

Calling the crowner at +18 (yeas:20 nays:2) 10.00 : 1 in favor of renaming Preaching to the Choir after having been open since mid November.

Alt names crowner swapped in.

bumping for votes

Time to call it?

Calling the Alt names crowner after 2 months open, with a final tally of +10 (yeas:10 nays:0) in favor of renaming to Confirmation Bias.

Crowner is closed; thread is starred as "consensus reached, grunt work of actually moving the page and its associated pages and wicks still needs to be done."

edited 11th Jan '12 6:21:45 AM by Madrugada

I apologize if this is obvious, but in renaming Preaching to the Choir to Confirmation Bias, should we just completely replace the Confirmation Bias page as it is now (i.e., a page about a logical fallacy) with the Preaching to the Choir one?

I ask mostly because I feel like there is some stuff worth keeping on the Confirmation bias page and I am not aware of another namespace that it would fit under if not /main.

I'd say no. This is one of those cases where it's both a fallacy and a fallacy used as a trope, like No True Scotsman (same name for both the trope and the fallacy) or Insane Troll Logic (where the fallacy is generally called "Non Sequitur" and the trope is Insane Troll Logic). The same page can cover both of them, explaining how it's a logical fallacy and how that fallacy is used a a trope.

edited 11th Jan '12 10:39:11 AM by Madrugada