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Putting an End to Dolphin Exploitation at Aquatic Theme Parks:

 26 Wicked 223, Sat, 26th Feb '11 7:55:15 PM from Death Star in the forest
You going to hate on fans who riot at concerts because the lead singer's all but dropping dead of pneumonia and can't perform? Are they entitled as well?

I'd say starting a riot because your favorite singer doesn't want to perform is show a tiny bit of entitlement, yes.

I'll start buying that when we get someone who can talk to animals and actually ask them if they mind the way they're being treated. Until then, whatever.

You can voice discontent without speaking in a human language, as the dolphins did when they refused their trainers' commands.
You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
Nihilist Hippie
"...And you're a whiny hippie douche-bag, since apparently we've degenerated into throwing insults around. I don't see how it's productive, but it sure is fun!!!"

Yes, exactly. Thank you.
"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
 28 drunkscriblerian, Sat, 26th Feb '11 7:56:59 PM from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
@love: Why are you thanking me?
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed.

~Cora M. Strayer~
The Joke-Master
"OK, fine. You are a fucking asshole. There, you happy? I wanted to express that, and did before. I just know from experience that conversation tends to degenerate if you put it like that."

Indeed, ad hominem responses do tend to be counterproductive to discussion. That's one of the reasons equivocational statements like "I could say..." are so annoying. But I am happy that your statement is honest rather than evasive.

"As I see it, sentience is the sole characteristic that makes a being worthy of moral consideration. If they can feel pleasure and pain, well then there you go."

As I see it, humanity is the sole characteristic that makes a being worthy of moral consideration, not least because only humans are capable of understanding morality. Rights and the consideration thereof are a reciprocal matter; to extend rights to something that is not only unwilling, not only incapable of, but incapable of conceiving of extending the same to you is pointless.

The reason human society works (to the degree which it does work) is that people (mostly) recognize the mutual benefits to all of living within it. Likewise, morality works (to the degree which it does work) when people behave morally toward each other. You can have all the empathy in the world for an animal, but it will not have empathy for you, rendering the whole exercise pointless.

Edit: This is one of the reasons I don't like posting here. Whenever I put any amount of time/thought into a post, I get like 10X ninja'd.

edited 26th Feb '11 8:00:16 PM by Wanderhome

Peace is a myth. Equality is a lie.
 30 KCK, Sat, 26th Feb '11 8:10:09 PM from In your closet
Can I KCK it?
@Drunk ...you know, I really dislike your arguing methods, you're using all the arguments I hate.

Why can't I care for animals and people? Caring about animals doesn't mean putting caring for humans on the back-burner; every person who cares about an animal's well-being is not a member of PETA.
There's no justice in the world and there never was~
Nihilist Hippie
"As I see it, humanity is the sole characteristic that makes a being worthy of moral consideration, not least because only humans are capable of understanding morality. Rights and the consideration thereof are a reciprocal matter; to extend rights to something that is not only unwilling, not only incapable of, but incapable of conceiving of extending the same to you is pointless.

The reason human society works (to the degree which it does work) is that people (mostly) recognize the mutual benefits to all of living within it. Likewise, morality works (to the degree which it does work) when people behave morally toward each other. You can have all the empathy in the world for an animal, but it will not have empathy for you, rendering the whole exercise pointless."

For me, the real point of empathy is not to get something for myself. Eh, whatever though. I just just don't see biology as morally relevant. So what if a species is smarter than average than other species? I don't think torturing or enslaving perpetual infants is OK. Species does not exist as objective metaphysical category, at least not one that carries any actual moral weight. But, well, that's my opinion.
"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
 32 drunkscriblerian, Sat, 26th Feb '11 8:14:13 PM from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
@KCK: Sorry, they are where I come from. Guess that renders me biased. I'll back out nao. smile

You do also realize that I'm completely wasted on beer and tequila (and I mean half a bottle of the second and six of the first) while making these arguments, right?

@Love: you fail to address my argument, which is that we should care about our own species (poor people, anyone?) before we start trying to worry about others.

Although I will say; people who go to aquatic shows expecting to be entertained are really dumb. That is all.

edited 26th Feb '11 8:17:59 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed.

~Cora M. Strayer~
 33 KCK, Sat, 26th Feb '11 8:18:20 PM from In your closet
Can I KCK it?
@Drunk Yes, the experts are talking. tongue
There's no justice in the world and there never was~
The Joke-Master
"For me, the real point of empathy is not to get something for myself. Eh, whatever though. I just just don't see biology as morally relevant. So what if a species is smarter than average than other species? I don't think torturing or enslaving perpetual infants is OK. Species does not exist as objective metaphysical category, at least not one that carries any actual moral weight. But, well, that's my opinion"

My point isn't that morality should be weighed by individual gain; even assuming that only humans were to be recognized as having rights, that would still entail lots of cases where individuals get shafted (either by upholding the "greater good" at personal expense or being victimized by someone who does not behave morally/ethically). My point is that personal respect and moral equality are central to individual rights; to respect someone as an individual, you must recognize their ability to hold themselves to the same standard. If they do not have that ability, then it's really just a case of you acting out a pantomime of ethicality while the other party remains indifferent.
Peace is a myth. Equality is a lie.
 35 Loni Jay, Sat, 26th Feb '11 8:22:22 PM from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
I would understand if the dolphons had been visibly mistreated, but as the story stands... they made them perform the show when they didn't want to. A bit unfair, perhaps, but we make animals do things they don't want to do all the time. When I take my dog for a walk and insist that it keeps walking with me rather than stopping to play with another dog, is that cruel?
Be not afraid...
Nihilist Hippie
"I would understand if the dolphons had been visibly mistreated, but as the story stands... they made them perform the show when they didn't want to. A bit unfair, perhaps, but we make animals do things they don't want to do all the time. When I take my dog for a walk and insist that it keeps walking with me rather than stopping to play with another dog, is that cruel?"

Maybe that's a tiny bit mean. I think looking at it as a sliding scale of cruelty might be best. But interpret it how you will.

"My point is that personal respect and moral equality are central to individual rights; to respect someone as an individual, you must recognize their ability to hold themselves to the same standard. If they do not have that ability, then it's really just a case of you acting out a pantomime of ethicality while the other party remains indifferent."

Sure, that's vital to the functioning of our society. That doesn't mean caring about moral patients isn't too. As it is, I'm quite sure they're not indifferent.

"This thread is so far off the tracks that it's not worth trying to rerail."

Um, not really. We we're just getting really philosophical. You know, how we should treat other species and why. If you think that's irrelevant, well I'd disagree. These are the fundamentals which are at the heart of this. They're why people disagree. But I suppose it's useless trying to debate this with a mod. tongue

edited 26th Feb '11 9:31:15 PM by LoveHappiness

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom
 37 Madrugada, Sat, 26th Feb '11 9:12:40 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
<Mod Hat ON>

This thread is so far off the tracks that it's not worth trying to rerail.

DG — I suggest you stop posting while you're tripping, or at least stop posting in OTC.

<Mod Hat OFF>
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
The system doesn't know you right now, so no post button for you.
You need to Get Known to get one of those.
Total posts: 37
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