Japan vs. the world: Yamato Nadeshiko

The description and the title make it very clear that this is a Japanese concept, but there are many examples from other cultures.

I have nothing against anime fanspeak terms defining universal concepts, (quite the contrary), but this isn't even a universal concept, it is specifically about Japanese female ideal.

Should't the western examples have their own trope?

I see no reason for there to be. If it appears similarly in other cultures then we note them. Just because a concept was invented in Japan doesn't mean that it can't exist elsewhere.

There's no reason why it couldn't appear in western media, particularly Japan-inspired stuff, but I suspect a lot of the western examples are probably incorrect.

edited 22nd Feb '11 11:28:44 AM by troacctid

A lot of the western examples don't fit the tropes, or would fit better into a trope about Victorian ideals which are similar but not identical. They're more the type of woman Jane Austen wrote about. They're proper, but witty with quick tongues.

edited 22nd Feb '11 11:42:10 AM by shimaspawn

The title itself roughly means "Japanese flower". Being Japanese is part fo the definition.

It's not like Zettai Ryouiki or Tsundere, where though the concept was written in Japan, but it can be applied to other cases, word by word following the description.

It's more like if we would call a knight "western example of a Samurai", or a nun a "western example of a Miko".

If there would be only one or two, we could note them on the page as "rare western examples" of something that is like this trope, but there are enough to write a page about the western equivalent.

edited 22nd Feb '11 11:50:34 AM by EternalSeptember

A split would probably be the easiest way of doing it.

I do think we should keep the examples that are Japanese characters in Western media on the base page though. Or characters that are the fantasy equivalent of Japanese.

edited 22nd Feb '11 11:58:28 AM by shimaspawn

Obviously. I was talking about examples from the western culture, not about examples appearing in the western media.

Zettai Ryoki (EDIT: fuck it, can never spell that) most explicitly did not originate in Japan.

edited 22nd Feb '11 12:36:30 PM by ccoa

It did, in the sense that they recognized it as a phenomenon, and named it, first.

Let's not turn this thread into another Zettai Ryouiki debate, please.

On-topic: I agree with splitting off examples that are not Japanese or Japanese-inspired.

I'm not convinced there needs to be a split. If you look at say, Disney's Cinderella, she meets practically every criteria except for the physical appearance (although she very much looks "feminine" and "traditional" for her culture) and being Japanese. Do we really want to split a trope on ethnicity alone?

I can see how there could be a similar, but distinct trope more based on Victorian and Regency ideals of a very proper lady who is nevertheless witty and capable (sort of a distaff counterpart to the Gentleman Snarker), and that some examples of that trope are being shoehorned into YN. But that doesn't mean that all western examples (or for that matter, all non-Japanese examples) do not fit the YN mold.

Disney's Cinderella is also missing the personality aspect. She's too strong willed and independent to count for this trope. A proper Yamato Nadeshiko would not disobey her step-mother like that.

edited 22nd Feb '11 3:36:53 PM by shimaspawn

^ And when does Disney's Cinderella ever disobey her stepmother? She's explicitly given permission to attend the ball if she completes her chores (which she does) and if she finds something suitable to wear (which the fairy godmother provides). The only time when she's not obeying her family's constant demands is when the stepmother announces that the Prince is looking for his bride and that's more lovestruck obliviousness than rebellion.

She might not have overtly said it, but she makes it very clear that she doesn't want Cinderella going. The fact that she went anyway and disobeyed her wishes is enough.

^Despite the fact that the stepmother had given EXPLICIT permission (and yes, the dress was destroyed, but the justification was that it contained stolen items and Cinderella hadn't made the dress) AND that another authority figure (the fairy godmother) just gave her explicit permission as well?

Honestly, Cinderella has barely a strong-willed or independent bone in her body. She embodies the dutiful, gracious, sweet Extreme Doormat until pushed mentality. You're picking at technicalities...probably simply because she's not Japanese.

No, I just see the character differently than you do. That's not the end of the world. It's not about her being Japanese. It's about her personality. It's not quite right.

Disney's Snow White surely fits does she not? What with all her wanting to do is to be pretty and cheerfully cook, clean and keep perfect house for the Dwarves until her prince comes along.

They're both far too emotional. They aren't calm, serene and stoic. Snow White scolds the dwarves and orders them to wash up. She's not enough of a doormat.

The same with Cinderella. The fact that she was told she could go doesn't matter. What matters is the fact that her step-mother made it obvious that she didn't want her to go, and no matter what she says a yamato nadeshiko would have done what she wanted.

edited 22nd Feb '11 7:52:59 PM by shimaspawn

Yes there is a complete difference between Japanese and Victorian styles and this even appears in anime in shows like Gundam Wing with Relena Peacecraft who was inspired by Audrey Hepburn is far more Victorian than Japanese. I would support a split.

Having a little rebel in them sometimes is a specific part of their character arc though depending on the series. Aoi Sakuraba from Ai Yori Aoshi starts the plot off with a small rebellion vs her parents when she goes looking for her fiance. She is even called this trope by other residents of the house she starts running (although they dont know her little rebellion that got her there.)

edited 23rd Feb '11 4:04:06 AM by Raso

Ah, thanks Raso. I still say they're too emotional though at least from the clips I can find on You Tube. It's one of those things where if you watch the two side my side you can tell that one isn't quite the same mould as the other, and it's not just looks. They don't has the same mannerisms.

If we decide that this trope isn't fundamentally Japanese, then it shouldn't have a Japanese name. If we decide that it is fundamentally Japanese, we need to create a new trope for the Western equivalent.

I would favor the latter over the former, both as a splitter in general and one who would not want to mess around with a trope name that performs this well in specfic.

I agree. The big problem with this trope seems to be people attempting to shoehorn in Western examples and having them not really fit. A Western trope for the similar but not identical stereotype would be nice.

The Trope concept itself is very engraved into Japanese society to where the term means "The Perfect Japanese Woman" its both the look (Kimono if not a Kimono then never anything revealing unless forced to wear it, white skin, dark hair very probable Hime Cut.) and the attitude (calm, slightly submissive, conservative) VERY traditional (That is far the most important part) probably knows Japanese Tea Ceremony or Flower Arranging most likely stay at home mom or housekeeper.

The best example I can think of that you have played Shima is Yukiko from Persona 4 although she subverts some of the extremely traditional aspects of it (Mostly in The Hyena and the fact that she is Dandere to Chie. and her leaving the family business without even talking with her parents.) but develops quite a few of the Modern additions of this trope in her social link (strong-willed, polite, yet not afraid to stand up to herself and taking off the doormat gloves when necessary).

edited 23rd Feb '11 10:06:38 AM by Raso