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Should religious folks have a serious objection to hell?:

 351 Justice 4243, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 5:30:07 PM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
Wait, are we taking specifically polytheists?

Because, yes, there's much less support that they're getting into Heaven on judgement day. It's much harder to make that notion vibe with the Qur'an.
Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
 352 Rottweiler, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 5:32:48 PM from Portland, Oregon
Dog and Pony Show
Wait, are we taking specifically polytheists?

Yes, though it would help a lot to get inside the Arabic terms rather than using English.

So just who shirks anyway?
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
 353 Justice 4243, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 5:37:42 PM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
This might help, I've never read this entry, but it looks fairly clear.
Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
 354 Rottweiler, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 5:42:43 PM from Portland, Oregon
Dog and Pony Show
[up] I just linked that!

I still can't tell if I'm committing shirk by belief in the Trinity.
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Unchanging Avatar.
Where is Ardiente? He's an ex-Muslim, right? Because I'm not sure if we're going to reach closure on second-hand information.

Here are a few quotes I found.

Sahi Muslim: (37.6665; 37.6666)

On the day of resurrection Allah would give a Muslim a Jew or a Christian to throw him into hell fire; this is to rescue the Muslims from the hell fire. A Jew or a Christian can be exchanged for a Muslim who was supposed to go to hellfire.

Qur'an (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

Qur'an (9:73) - O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination

edited 23rd Feb '11 5:47:06 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 356 Bobby G, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 5:46:28 PM from the Silvery Tay
vigilantly taxonomish
It's always been my understanding that the Trinity still refers to one God, rather than many. To claim that belief in the Trinity is "setting up partners" for God is to misunderstand it.
 357 Justice 4243, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 5:48:20 PM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
I’m not sure how specific it gets, I think the idea is that Christians and Jews (…and Zoroastrians somehow) will come to understanding about the true nature of God, effectively converting before final judgment.

At least that’s what I interpreted from my second Other Wiki link, and my second to last link seemed too suggested even shirk can be forgiven provided one repents before death.

Ah, theology… how you love to make people scramble for meaning within a handful of sentences.

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
 358 Rottweiler, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 5:52:53 PM from Portland, Oregon
Dog and Pony Show
@Bobby: One being, three persons, yes.
“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
 359 Justice 4243, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 5:54:06 PM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
[up][up][up][up]Your Hadith passage seems downright contradictory the Qur’an passage I posted

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve Qur'an 2:62

I’m curious as to how it’s resolved.

edited 23rd Feb '11 6:00:23 PM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
Unchanging Avatar.
Same. I'm really not sure anymore. Some of this seems to be contradictory, but I'm sure it all makes sense in context. I didn't get any of this from the Quran, and I can't even read Arabic (yet).
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 361 Justice 4243, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 7:29:19 PM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
It is something of a paraphrase from the Sahih Muslim

Though, there seems to be a number of contradictions with 37:6665-3666 and the Qur’an. Not just the part I mentioned, but also saying that “no Muslim will go to Hell” pretty flat out contradicts that part of the Qur’an that say all Muslims will go to Hell (temporarily, to be purified).

My wife (Muslim) and I looked at it, and she seems to think that translation is a little rough, possible word for word without paying too much attention to proper sentence structure and maybe off because of that.

She also noted it was the second hadith, and mentioned that the first hadith is typically the one the Sunni collection follows the most rigorously (After the Qur’an, of course). She didn’t say anything specific about the second one other than that, but added that most Sunni Muslims don’t follow everything in all the hadiths and by the time one is adhering to even three hadiths, that person is pretty much considered insufferable even by Sunni Muslim standards.

If that’s the case, I am troubled to think about what someone who adheres to all six hadiths is like…

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
Unchanging Avatar.
If you don't mind me asking, what does your wife say about Hell? What happens to People of the Book?

edited 23rd Feb '11 7:46:04 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 363 Justice 4243, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 7:58:43 PM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
She emphasizes that she’s not really a scholar or an authority on any of this and suggests picking up a “modern English” copy of the Qur’an as the best answer, but did humor the response by mentioning that she’s actually asked quite a few scholar’s and authorities on the subject and still considers it a “grey area”.

She did mention a specific instance of when she talked to female teacher of the Qur’an about non-believers and that her teacher said that no one knows for sure what will happen on the day of judgment, but they would likely be judged more on their merits than anything, and that “being good or bad” regardless of faith (Muslims included) would likely by what affects judgment the most.

Some other random tidbits from the long conversation your open ended question created:

People’s faith wouldn’t even be an issue if they had never heard of Allah (so, merits only, I’m guessing).

Children (she thinks those who haven’t hit puberty yet) and the severely disabled automatically go to Heaven.

edited 23rd Feb '11 7:59:19 PM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
Unchanging Avatar.
Sorry for being unspecific. Thanks, though, that's at least some closure.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 365 Justice 4243, Wed, 23rd Feb '11 8:07:22 PM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
Sorry for being a passive aggressive ass.

I was just venting over trying to convey several minutes of conversation into a couple paragraphs, sorry if it seemed I was taking it out on you.
Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
 366 Blurring, Thu, 24th Feb '11 10:13:54 AM from Ampang, Selangor, Malaysia.
Get bored because one can.
In Islam, no one is sure whether they will go to heaven or hell. It is not for a human to judge whether someone will go to heaven or Hell. Only God knows. Humans cannot know because there is no way a human could gauge whether the faith an individual have is true or not. Ask any Muslim whether they are guaranteed heaven, they should say no. However, they will believe the judgment to be most fair.

edited 24th Feb '11 10:20:26 AM by Blurring

Ain't no parrot on my shoulder and no rings in my ear, but I ain't no irate pirate, real swashbuckling buccaneer!
 367 Justice 4243, Thu, 24th Feb '11 10:32:28 AM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
Thank you, that’s most helpful on the matter.

On further inspection, it seems the Hadiths in general have more info on Hell, and a great deal of it flat out contradicts the Qur’an. I don’t think I’ve come across anything from the first Hadith (or rather, that one that’s considered the most authentic), so maybe that reconciles a bit easier with the Qur’an.

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
 368 Blurring, Thu, 24th Feb '11 11:33:43 AM from Ampang, Selangor, Malaysia.
Get bored because one can.
Do you check the historical context of the hadith and surah? It could explain a lot.
Ain't no parrot on my shoulder and no rings in my ear, but I ain't no irate pirate, real swashbuckling buccaneer!
 369 Justice 4243, Thu, 24th Feb '11 11:34:41 AM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
Sadly, I've only found translations and no commentary as of yet.

Unless you count people with an axe to grind against Muslims as commentary.
Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
 370 Blurring, Thu, 24th Feb '11 11:56:02 AM from Ampang, Selangor, Malaysia.
Get bored because one can.
Could you please quote the number of hadith and surah. I could get it to someone who really knows about this.
Ain't no parrot on my shoulder and no rings in my ear, but I ain't no irate pirate, real swashbuckling buccaneer!
 371 Justice 4243, Thu, 24th Feb '11 12:36:16 PM from Portland, OR, USA
WHAT IS GOING ON?!
The ones we where talking about earlier were these Qur’an verses from the Qur’an:

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve Qur'an 2:62

From Sura 19
67 Man will say, ‘What! when I have died shall I then come forth alive? 68 Does not man then remember that we created him before when he was naught?’

69 And by thy Lord! we will surely gather them together, and the devils too; then we will surely bring them forward around hell, on their knees!

70 Then we will drag off from every sect whichever of them has been most bold against the Merciful.

71 Then we know best which of them deserves most to be broiled therein. 72 There is not one of you who will not go down to it, -that is settled and decided by thy Lord.

Which I haven’t been able to reconcile with

Sahih Muslim, Book 37:

Book 037, Number 6665:
Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.

Book 037, Number 6666:
Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him).

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 2:

Book 2, Number 0427:
Narrated Umarah ibn Ruwaybah:
A man from Basrah said: Tell me what you heard from the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). He said: I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: No one will enter Hell who has prayed before the rising of the sun and before its setting (meaning the dawn and the afternoon prayers). He said three times: Have you heard it from him? He replied: Yes, each time saying: My ears heard it and my heart memorised it. The man then said: And I heard him (the Prophet) say that.

There’s others, but they all either don’t add up with Qur'an 2:62, or the notion that non-martyrs will go to Hell to be purified. Mostly I was curious if they’re somehow explained in a way to coexist with the ideas in the Qur’an or dismissed as contradicting the Qur’an (or just plain mistranslated, or somesuch).

Haddith translations are coming from here. I won’t bother linking the sites that are bringing the verses to my attention, as they’re not so much quoting as paraphrasing cherry-picked sections to “prove” their point.

edited 24th Feb '11 12:37:25 PM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15

SO JUSTICE I HEARD YOU WERE TUBESPHERING ON THE BLAGOBLAG-Blixty
Unchanging Avatar.
Yeah, I have the same problem. The only places giving helpful information are also clearly biased.
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 373 Blurring, Thu, 24th Feb '11 7:43:10 PM from Ampang, Selangor, Malaysia.
Get bored because one can.
For surah 2 verse 62.

The Jews, Christians and Sabians mentioned in that verse are the people who had submitted to the true God, and God rewards them. It is also for the people who had followed other true prophet of God but the teaching of Muhammad (S.A.W) has yet to reach them.

For surah 19 verse 66-71

The man in question is a non believer who doesn't believe he will be raised again.

The hadith meant Mukmins, people who fulfil the conditions in surah Al-Mukminun. Basically it says that a non-believer will be put into hell first before a Mukmin, and the sin forgiven. The non-believer is a different set of people than the one mentioned in the surah.

edited 24th Feb '11 9:18:34 PM by Blurring

Ain't no parrot on my shoulder and no rings in my ear, but I ain't no irate pirate, real swashbuckling buccaneer!
 374 Vorpy, Thu, 24th Feb '11 9:38:01 PM from from from from from from
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I like the idea of Hell. It's everyone else that's ruining it.
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