Split off "Good Versus Evil".: Black And White Morality

So you're saying Good can be grey, and Evil can be grey, so when you talk about good versus evil, you really mean some sort of sliding scale of moral conflict.

Light Is Not Good and Dark Is Not Evil.

Good Versus Evil really just requires that one side firmly holds the moral high ground(according to the narrative). The evil side may have plenty of good points, but will still be clearly evil in comparison to the good side(unless The Strawman Strikes Back).

Black-and-White Morality indicates that the good guys in a story are wholly good; anyone who is less than good on the hero's side will normally end up becoming a villain or falling in line with the other heroes, and the villains are Always Chaotic Evil without a good guy on their side, except maybe a Worthy Opponent or another such Anti-Villain who will almost certainly make a Heel–Face Turn by story's end. By the end of the story, all the good guys are going to be on one side, all of the bad guys will be on the other; any morally grey characters will be rare, and will choose one side or the other. Good vs. Evil just means that one side is good, while the other side is evil, but it doesn't necessarily mean that one side is full of saints and the other side is only villains; just that one group is obviously good and the other group is obviously evil. It can mean Black-and-White Morality, but it can also be a Morality Kitchen Sink.

edited 26th Aug '11 5:54:20 PM by tropetown

I'm for just removing Good Versus Evil as a redirect. In fact, I think good versus evil should be a redirect to Seen It A Million Times or Oldest Ones in the Book

Why? Good vs. Evil is not synonymous with either of those tropes. I'd list it on the Older Than Dirt index, but it certainly couldn't be a redirect to anything other than Black-and-White Morality. These aren't quite the same thing, either, which is why we should split them.

edited 26th Aug '11 5:52:32 PM by tropetown

Just because this was pointed out earlier, yet ignored, I'll bring it up again:

If Black-and-White Morality and Good Versus Evil are different (I don't immediately see why, but I need to read the whole thread properly), then why shouldn't Black-and-Black Morality and Evil Versus Evil be different, too? What about anything with Gray morality? What about Gray-and-Gray Morality?

Change one, and you open the whole can of worms...

edited 26th Aug '11 8:58:42 PM by USAF713

How are they different? Well, let's see:

• Good vs. Evil: Exactly What It Says on the Tin. This is simply a conflict where one faction is considered morally superior to their counterpart. This can include Black-and-White Morality, but it can also be: White-and-Grey Morality, Morality Kitchen Sink or even Black-and-Grey Morality: the point is that one side of the conflict is morally superior, by the conventions of the story, to another, darker side.

• Black-and-White Morality: Where the story's morality paints one group as Always Lawful Good, and another as Always Chaotic Evil. Any morally grey characters will be rare, and will end up falling in line with one faction or the other by story's end. They may shift back to being grey after the story is over, but they will either be on the side of good or the side of evil by the climax.

Why don't Evil Versus Evil or Grey-and-Grey Morality need a split? Well, Grey-and-Grey Morality already has another trope that is separate for a similar reason Morality Kitchen Sink describes a story that has black, white and grey characters on all sides, which sounds like Grey-and-Grey Morality, but can still apply in a case of Good vs. Evil. One faction can be morally superior to another, but people from all over the spectrum are present on both sides, thus forming a Morality Kitchen Sink. Grey-and-Grey Morality implies that there is no discernable difference between either group, morally speaking, and there is no way to split it into a new trope. For the cases where both sides are grey, but one is somewhat greyer than the other, it would be Grey-and-Grey Morality that would overlap with Good vs. Evil; for cases where morality is not a factor in the conflict, it would simply be Grey-and-Grey Morality, full stop.

Evil Versus Evil and Black-and-Black Morality don't need a split, either, but for different reasons. With Evil Versus Evil, each side can have its share of heroes and villians, but each faction is equally evil (If one was morally superior to another, this would be Black-and-Grey Morality, albeit with a very dark shade of grey.). This type of conflict is certainly doable and can be quite entertaining done right, though if it is the central conflict, it will usually either shift up to Grey-and-Grey Morality by making both sides more sympathetic, by not focusing on the morality of each side at all, or cause Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. Evil Versus Evil doesn't need to be the central conflict in a story, of course; there can be a more heroic side watching two villains going at it, placing bets on who's going to come out on top. Black-and-Black Morality states that both sides are unambiguously evil as well, but it implies that everyone in the story is equally evil, which is more or less impossible to portray in fiction. Some characters, to different people, will seem more evil than others, and those who fight against them will seem grayer by comparison, even if they are all still evil. Even taking Evil Is Cool into account, either the antagonists will be the unlikably evil ones (making the protagonists grey by default, and therefore turning this into Black-and-Grey Morality), BOTH sides will be unlikably evil (Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy), or the protagonists will be the more villainous side (making the antagonists grey, and turning this into Black-and-Grey Morality again.) Black-and-Black Morality, in short, is nearly impossible to do, and is not widespread enough for its own trope: any examples would automatically go in Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. It makes sense as a redirect because they are similar on the surface; anyone looking for Black-and-Black Morality is likely going to be satisfied by Evil Versus Evil, which, like Good vs. Evil, would be a Super-Trope to this. Black-and-Black Morality is basically just Evil Versus Evil Up To Eleven.

edited 27th Aug '11 2:05:26 AM by tropetown

I think one could make the argument that Black-and-Black Morality is the objective trope to which Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy is the subjective response.

True, though my point still stands; Black-and-Black Morality is more or less impossible to put in a story. Even if the main conflict is Evil Versus Evil, at least one character will always appear to be A Lighter Shade of Grey, and will appear grey by virtue of being surrounded by more evil characters. Evil Versus Evil, on the other hand, takes this into account and just makes the conflict feature two evil factions; if it is the main conflict, then there will be characters who will seem to be A Lighter Shade of Grey than others by virtue of audience familiarity, if nothing else; if not, they might both be Always Chaotic Evil. Although, the fact that we can even spot a difference might mean that this can be a trope; it just wouldn't be worth giving it its own page, since it's basically just Evil Versus Evil Up To Eleven, and is pretty much impossible to put in a work.

edited 27th Aug '11 2:17:56 AM by tropetown

This is how I think Good, Evil, Black, White and Grey in these tropes are/should be used.

• Good: The side we are supposed to root for, usually tending towards morally good.
• Evil: The side we are supposed to root against, usually tending towards morally bad.
• White: A side which is indisputably morally good.
• Grey: A side which is indisputably not wholly morally good, nor morally bad.
• Black: A side which is indisputably morally bad.

By this definition, basically Good vs. Evil is when there is one side we are supposed to root for, and a side we are supposed to root against. Black-and-White Morality is when the story tries to portray the idea that one side is irrefutably completely good and the other irrefutably completely bad.

Also by this definition, Evil vs. Evil would mean two side you are rooting against are fighting each other. Black-and-Black Morality would be two sides which are indisputably morally bad fight each other. I think there is overlap, but not necessarily complete synchronicity.

I don't know, I guess I agree that should be a split too. Either way though, I think the Evil vs. Evil description is probably incorrect.

edited 27th Aug '11 2:22:44 AM by NoirGrimoir

This brings up a problem with Evil Versus Evil - as it is now, the trope description claims it's specifically about a situation where one of the "evils" is a Villain Protagonist. That's much more limiting then the name suggests, and means that at present there is no trope for a general "evil versus evil" - regardless of who the protagonists are and what other factions exist - scenario.

Yes, I agree; the conflict they're describing sounds more like Black-and-Grey Morality than Evil vs. Evil. It was probably supposed to mean a general situation where one evil group fought another, but along the way it got hijacked and became Too Specific.

edited 27th Aug '11 2:29:45 AM by tropetown

By this I think Evil vs. Evil should probably exist as something like Villains Vs Villains. There is still a good side, but two characters or sides who are villains fight each other at some point, without involvement of the "Good Side" (Heroes). This isn't really necessarily related to the plot as a whole, it can be just an event.

Probably the definition that is currently under the name Evil vs. Evil would exist instead under the name Black-and-Black Morality, meaning two sides (regardless of whether we are supposed to root for them or not, meaning either could be the Designated Hero side or the Villain side), are indisputably both morally bad. Although in all honestly, it's pretty tricky to get something like that without it actually being Black-and-Grey Morality or invoking Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy, by virtue of how humans work (we generally like moral people and dislike immoral people). There are probably some out there, but it might be Too Rare To Trope. I supposed it depends how far you take "indisputably morally bad" in meaning.

edited 27th Aug '11 2:42:45 AM by NoirGrimoir

I would define it like this:

• Evil Versus Evil: Two Complete Monsters fighting it out to the death in a pit.

• Black-and-Black Morality: Everyone in the story setting is a Complete Monster of equal vileness. No exceptions.

The reasoning behind this is that, if Black-and-White Morality is where a work shows one side as indisputably evil and the other as indisputably good, with any grey being absorbed into both sides, then Black=indisputable evil, and White = indisputable good. When the setting adopts Black-and-White Morality, grey cannot exist on its own, so Black-and-Black Morality would mean indisputable evil vs indisputable evil; any grey would just turn it into Black-and-Grey Morality. Good vs. Evil, on the other hand, can allow for grey, which would mean that Evil vs. Evil would, too; it's just that both factions must be evil, though this doesn't mean that neither side can have heroes or villains. Black / White / Grey morality has more to do with the setting, characters, and differing factions, while Good / Evil has more to do with specific conflicts by designating who is morally superior (Good can be anywhere from White to A Lighter Shade of Grey).

edited 27th Aug '11 3:05:18 AM by tropetown

I think...that's kind of what I said, (I suggested Evil vs. Evil renamed to -> Villain Vs Villain) so I agree. I also agree with Evil+Good representing specific conflicts and the colors, representing setting, too.

Though I don't think Evil vs. Evil has to necessarily mean two Complete Monsters, just two villains, neither of which we particularly want to win.

edited 27th Aug '11 3:06:27 AM by NoirGrimoir

Someone should probably TRS Evil vs. Evil, then (I too, would be in favor of a clearer rename.).

You're right, it doesn't have to be two Complete Monsters: I was just using them as an example.

edited 27th Aug '11 3:23:42 AM by tropetown

I think the crowner would be stable by now...

Seems to point towards a split!

Good vs. Evil is possibly the most universal trope we could have, so it's best that we not allow examples on the page.

Actually, the trope I was thinking of would be more general. It could be any sort of clash between good and evil, whether as Elemental Powers, heroes versus villains, or Heaven versus Hell (should we also make that a trope?).

Bumping, since the crowner went through, and we should resolve this to clear the backlog.