Possible Trope Decay?: Germans Love David Hasselhoff

The general consensus I get from Germans Love David Hasselhoff is that it's a variation of an Ensemble Dark Horse that has a large fandom in another country. The problem though is just like the Ensemble Darkhorse and Fan-Preferred Couple pages, it's become a breeding ground of "Insert Character Here" definitely have a fandom in "This Country." Not to mention half the trope seems to be talking about shows that have high popularity in another country instead of characters.

edited 15th Feb '11 11:19:08 AM by Lionheart0

'... what may be considered a bog-standard genre piece in the home country may be considered new and exciting in a country that hasn't been exposed to the particular genre yet.'

That would appear to cover programmes.

edited 15th Feb '11 12:58:10 PM by halfmillennium

Also, read the Laconic version:

"A show/character is inexplicably very popular outside its country of origin"

Should this be locked then? Since it's been made from a misunderstanding of the trope?

What I don't get is how this is considered a subjective trope? The idea of the trope is that someone is particularly popular in another country? How the hell is that subjective? If they're popular in that area they're popular in that area it's not really a matter of opinion. I mean thats like me saying Justin Bieber is incredibly popular with tweeny boppers is subjective. It isn't. Sayings he's talented or that he sucks is however.

Popularity is always subjective, by definition. It has nothing to do with the work itself.

edited 10th Aug '11 2:43:45 PM by Fighteer

This issue has already been discussed in another thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13000591870A25975600&page=1

There is some subjectivity in it but not quite YMMV there are many objective factors such as sales, Ratings crowd turnouts, and such.

IE Negima is always ranked in the top 5 manga sales in the US however in Japan itself it's in the mid 40s.

Character specific ones it's a bit murky as they have to have established fanbases and such which can be subjective. But there can be objective factors like character polls, making them more visible in promos etc.

While the sales might be an objective measurement of the popularity, it's still not important or within the work. Which is what tropes are. It's Trivia at best.

Minor quibble: someone changed the trope name to read "Germans Love David Hassel Hoff". Also, I think work popularity-related tropes should all be considered subjective for reasons already discussed; however, considering that it can have some influence on the work (the Trope Namer putting out more than one album, or the fact that we have a second The Big O season) makes it a bit more than mere trivia IMHO.

But it's not a trait of the work itself. If it had a huge impact on the show itself(eg, the Pokémon anime dropped a number of cultural tropes when it became a global phenomenon), then I think it'd fit on the main page.

I think the catch with Trivia tropes is very similar to the one for YMMV tropes. You can come up with instances where a given more than just trivia, like with The Big O. Just as you can find instances where everyone agrees that a given YMMV trope applies. But unless you can show that examples across the board fit that pattern, they can't be cited on the main page for a given work.

Sorry, but I have to say the 'Hoff is pure trivia.

No it isn't.

So then it's not a trope, but there's nothing subjective about determining the extent or degree of popularity outside one's country of origin. At best, it's something to be categorized as "Trivia"—not YMMV. YMMV concepts, after all, can (and usually do) refer to occurrences within works, which Germans Love David Hasselhoff has nothing to do with.

edited 6th Oct '11 9:38:55 AM by SeanMurrayI

Popularity is an Audience Reaction, which is grouped with subjectives.

I'm hardly surprised to hear that a trope named "<country> loves <character>" is used for any and all cases where a certain country loves a given character.

Problem is this a trope about a character and it's named after an artist, which is kind of missing the point. It invites misuse since the title itself ain't an example.

Uh... yes, the title is an example. David Hasselhoff has released a bunch of albums, and his popularity as a musician (possibly as an actor as well, but I can't confirm that) is much higher in Germany than in other parts of the world. The reasons why this is true (boiling down to a benign Misaimed Fandom, from what I've heard) aren't important.

Overall, I think the trope is being misunderstood and narrowed as a result. It isn't "This character is more popular abroad than at home," it's "(INSERT NOUN HERE) is more popular abroad than at home." A performer, a character, maybe even an entire work... all of these are nouns and can fit in the above construction.

edited 7th Oct '11 9:44:02 AM by 32_Footsteps

Actually the biggest problem I find with the way the trope is used isn't "X is more popular here than in the country of origin" but "X is extremely popular in other countries," regardless of how popular they may be everywhere. Thus Pokemon, Transformers and other worldwide franchises probably shouldn't count.

Also, what makes it subjective is the idea of popularity to begin with, but also at what threshold does it count for "much more popular." 10 percent more? 50 percent? 1000 percent?

The only way it may be considered objective is like in Dodgeball A True Underdog Story, where they reference the trope name by having the Hoff as the German team manager.

edited 8th Oct '11 2:21:32 PM by KJMackley

How do you measure popularity to get your percentage?

So the trope is not "<actor> is popular in <country>", but "<anything> is MORE popular in <country> than in the country it's written for".

I think a rename is in order.

Well, before we take action, I think I'd like to see a Wick Check and maybe an example check too, to get a better idea of what's going on with the examples.

^^^ That's the point, there isn't a set system for measuring popularity and this trope requires a comparison.

I'll do a quick buzz of the Video Game subpage for this trope, since that's the medium I know best, and see how well the examples on the page fit.

• Metroidvania genre - Yes. It's true to the extent that they actually tried using the name "Castlevania" in Japan because it was more popular under that name (except it didn't take), and this trope is why Metroid Prime was handed off to an American studio.
• Kingdom Hearts - Actually, this probably belongs in the Advertising section, since it really deals with this trope in how it was used to promote the game.
• Metroid - Yes, and only partially redundant with the first point (since the Prime games weren't in that genre).
• Blaster Master - Yes; in fact, one of the strongest examples.
• Nintendo Game Cube - Eh, I'd have to say no. It's true that it sold better in the United States. It's worth noting that the U.S. has a higher population than Japan, and they had about as much market share in each location.
• Funky Kong of Donkey Kong Country - Sounds more like a Creator's Pet once Nintendo took back control of the franchise, so I'm inclined to say no.
• The Legend Of Zelda - I'm inclined to only say that Twilight Princess qualifies. It's the only chapter of the series where there's a huge discrepancy in the popularity of it between Japan and the U.S. - all of the other chapters are more popular in the U.S., but hardly duds or ignored at home.
• Advance Wars - Yes, and the page even goes into the circumstances that made it happen.
• Jon Talbain of Darkstalkers - Yes; he's the most popular character of the cast in America but is invisble to the Japanese.
• Kefka of Final Fantasy VI - Yes; it's widely assumed that the translation (which gave him more character and made him reminiscent of The Joker caused it).
  • Final Fantasy VI - No; even if it isn't quite as fondly remembered in Japan, it was still a huge game there.
  • Final Fantasy in general - No; again, even if it isn't quite held to the same esteem as Dragon Quest, the game is huge domestically. (Ironically, Final Fantasy VII is the closest to fitting the trope, as the American fandom of that game is noticeably larger than the Japanese fandom... though it still was big there, too.)
  • Jecht in Final Fantasy Dissidia - Yes; it's the classic divide about pretty boys/manly men between Japanese and western fandom.
• Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross - No. The former just hasn't seen its legend grow in Japan as much as it did abroad (its reputation was about the same in each country once upon a time). The latter... I'm not sure "hotly contested" is quite the same as "more popular."
• Baten Kaitos - No. They have a cult following, but they kind of flopped here, too.
• Choi Bounge of King Of Fighters - Yes; I've even seen this in action in arcades.
  • SNK in general - Yes; it helps that those things were quite durable, too.
• Castlevania - Yes, arguably redundant with the first item.
• Pump It Up - No. Pump It Up is just as popular in its home country as it is in South America... and the U.S. isn't said home country. South Korea is.
  • Dance Dance Revolution - No. The game series is still quite popular in Japan; the decision to not pursue it further in the US was due to the death of the arcade; there's a reason that they still churn them out for consoles.
• Osu Tatakae Ouendan - Yes.
  • Elite Beat Agents - Also yes. I suspect that cheesy, vapid pop is easier to listen to if it's not in a language you can understand.
• Wizardry - close call. It depends on just how much more popular it has to be compared to domestically.
• Chetahmen II stage song - Yes.
• Counter Strike - No; that game is just as huge in the U.S. It's continued popularity isn't even a consideration since its upgraded version is still huge as well.
• The PSP - Yes.
• Killer7 - No; it has a cult following in the U.S., but it still flopped here.
• No More Heroes - Yes; it's frankly amazing that they even bothered to release the sequel there at all.
• Dynasty Warriors - Unless it's held to be some sort of godly game in England, it isn't any more appreciably popular there than anywhere else, so no.
• Command And Conquer - It's bigger in Germany, but I don't think it's that much bigger. For as popular as it is here, I'd expect it to have "Star Craft in South Korea" level popularity to qualify. So no.
• Golden Sun - Yes; the overseas fandom is often attributed as the cause of the DS version.
• Sega Master System - Yes.
  • Sega Genesis - Yes, if only for the longevity issue.
• Brazilians in video games - I think clarification is in order.
• Bad Day L.A. - No; "not as much hate" doesn't qualify.
• Disgaea character examples - Yes; particularly Gordon.

It's getting late; I'll look at the other half tomorrow.

EDIT: Continuing from yesterday -

• Mad World - Probably not, because it wasn't all that popular here, either. I think this falls more under Cult Classic.
• Battle City - Yes.
• Civilization - No; while it was huge in Russia, it's pretty damn big in America, too.
• Sim City - Hell no. Even if it isn't as big as The Sims in its home country, it's still one of the biggest sellers domestically, started a genre, and is still widely recognized as one of the most influential games ever.
• PC games in general - Uh... that's a complex issue that I don't think can really be analyzed by this trope.
• Handheld titles - No; even getting beyond similar issues as above, most handheld titles are Japanese and thus they're most popular in their home country.
• Dungeon Master - Yes.
• Kinzo of Umineko No Naku Koro Ni - Probably not, unless the fandom for his game depiction is much larger than I know of.
• Silent Hill - Yes.
• 3D Super Mario Bros games - Eh, I'm inclined to say no. Yes, the Japanese generally prefer the 2D ones while Americans generally prefer the 3D ones, both types sell quite well in both countries.
  • Mario series RPGs - I think this mostly applies to the Mario And Luigi games specifically - Paper Mario still does alright in Japan (again, keep the population difference in mind), but the Americans keep the portable titles going strong (explaining Fawful's frequent presence).
• Dead Rising in general, Frank West specifically - Yes; some credit this as part of Keiji Inafune's dissatisfaction with the Japanese video game industry and his ongoing praise of America's video game scene.
• Arcade games in general - I suppose so, although it's worth noting that the format is being produced by Japanese companies... I'm inclined to say no because it's Japanese arcade games that are big in Japan.
• Project Blackout - Yes.
• The Neverhood - Yes; it's actually most likely that it got a sequel because of this.
• I Wanna Be The Guy - Dunno; I think it's a cult thing either way.
• Roguelike genre in general - Yes.
• Top Gear (game) - Yes.
• King Of Fighters - Redundant entry (see general Neo Geo comment above).
• Tekken - No; it's also huge in its home country.
• Fire Emblem Jugdral - No; at this time, that's more of a Cult Classic.
• Setsuna of Last Blade 2 - Another that falls more under Cult Classic, since it was mostly ignored.
• Defense Of The Ancients All Stars - Yes.
• Spelunker - Yes.
• Tamagotchi - Yes, since they specify the video games.
• StarCraft - Yes; this is in fact the standard, I think, for just how much more popular something has to get to qualify for this trope if the domestic market likes it.
• Heroes Of Might And Magic - Another borderline example; I think it depends on just how deep the fandom is in Russia.
• Mega Man - No; even if it isn't quite as popular among adults in Japan, it's about as big in the domestic market as it is in the U.S.

The In-Universe examples, though, those are all correct.

edited 9th Oct '11 9:18:13 AM by 32_Footsteps

I agree - it's not YMMV. Popularity depends of people's opinions, and we haven't specified the definition of popularity, but regardless, your personal mileage has zero effect on an example's validity.

It may not vary, but audience reactions, of which this very much is, is still grouped under YMMV. After all, what if you are an American that doesn't like Metroid? Does "Americans like Metroid" apply to you, then?