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CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#51: Feb 12th 2011 at 6:32:19 PM

[up][up]I Cannot Self-Terminate is a Truth in Television trope. If you're quadraplegic and unable to effect any movement in your body below the neck, killing yourself may require assistance.

Fully support the right to die. Suicide is undeniably selfish where there's friends or family who will be devastated by the loss (that being what ultimately prevented me from going through with it after my total nervous breakdown a few years back) but it remains the idividual's right if they truly do not want to live anymore.

And yes, assisted suicide should be legal. People can and do leave the country looking for it (Dignitas makes a fortune off of Brits going to Switzerland to get what they can't get here) and it would make far more sense to just legalise it here. Won't happen, having been defeated in the courts in the last year or two, but it should.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#52: Feb 12th 2011 at 8:45:12 PM

It's very easy to say "people have a right to die, it's nobody elses business" when you've never actually been close to someone who commited suicide. I have, so I have to say no.

For people who a terminally ill and have no hope of recovery, maybe.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#53: Feb 12th 2011 at 8:54:38 PM

Whether or not others suffer is immaterial to whether or not somebody has a right to do something with their own life.

Fight smart, not fair.
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#54: Feb 12th 2011 at 9:05:38 PM

It's not immaterial. Some people have a responsibility to those around them.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#55: Feb 12th 2011 at 9:14:20 PM

No, no they don't. This is no different than claiming that we should suspend the first amendment because somebody said something that made you cry.

Fight smart, not fair.
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#56: Feb 12th 2011 at 9:23:27 PM

So parents have no responsibility to their children, then? It's perfectly acceptable for someone to have a child, raise them, and then commit suicide while they're still dependent on them?

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
codapaz from NY, New York Since: Aug, 2010
#58: Feb 12th 2011 at 9:58:24 PM

Yes. People should have the right to die. I just got out of a christian high school and I would sit through classes where my teachers would tell me all terminally ill people needed was love and god to get through their pain. But both my parents are doctors and actually, they say people who are dying want to be in control and *gasp* sometimes would rather not to be forced to wait it out in pain and misery. As for suicide, I think its more selfish for a family to guilt trip someone into living when that someone didn't want to than for that person to kill themselves. I mean, you always hear suicide is selfish but living in misery while you are totally unhappy to increase the happiness of other people? Thats awful. Anyway, I think if people go to therapy and try to things and still want to die, they should have that right. Its sad, yes, but its a personal choice and living doesn't suit everyone. God knows this world can be hard enough on people who enjoy it.

Bittersweet.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#59: Feb 12th 2011 at 11:36:29 PM

@Deboss: You took Talby's straw man and swallowed it whole, man. I've honestly never seen that happen before. Still...doesn't that seem cold to you?

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#60: Feb 12th 2011 at 11:51:19 PM

I wasn't trying to straw man, I just wanted to know if Deboss would hold on to his "nobody is responsible to anyone else" position under the specific circumstances I posted about.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#61: Feb 12th 2011 at 11:55:40 PM

It's what I live for. Other questions I've answered similarly include: "would a person have the right to let another man drown because he didn't feel like getting wet" and "do you have to right to kick someone who breaks into your house out if it would result in their death". I'm rather resistant to such appeals to emotion cause I don't feel much in the way of sympathy.

A specific instance isn't a great way to disprove a right, which is what I assume you were trying to do. Most rights have exceptions, generally when others rights are inhibited anyway. For instance the "shouting "fire" in a crowded theater is not protected under the first amendment" thing.

edited 13th Feb '11 12:01:59 AM by Deboss

Fight smart, not fair.
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#62: Feb 13th 2011 at 12:33:06 AM

Other questions I've answered similarly include: "would a person have the right to let another man drown because he didn't feel like getting wet" and "do you have to right to kick someone who breaks into your house out if it would result in their death". I'm rather resistant to such appeals to emotion cause I don't feel much in the way of sympathy.
I inclined to agreed with deboss here. I'm not a very sympathy person either.

edited 13th Feb '11 12:34:13 AM by joeyjojo

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AllanAssiduity Since: Dec, 1969
#63: Feb 13th 2011 at 3:16:30 AM

And good riddance!
Anti-government feelings, I presume.
If people want to end their lives I don't see what right that society has to either help or hinder them. If your death means so much to you, don't go looking for legal support or 'assistance'. Get off your fat dying ass and find a fork and a wall socket and put yourselve out of your misery. Jesus can't people fend for themselves anymore?
And if it doesn't work? If they are left in suffering, thanks to their failure?

And, see, I'd like legal support, since if a family member tries to help me in arranging my death, they can easily be prosecuted for it. That's just criminal.

edited 13th Feb '11 3:18:41 AM by AllanAssiduity

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#64: Feb 13th 2011 at 4:30:45 AM

They are not applicable. Assisted suicide is a negative right. There is no obligation from anyone to lend a hand in your final exit. Even if your at death's door it's not anyone else's responsibility to either pull you back or push you through.

edited 13th Feb '11 4:36:25 AM by joeyjojo

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AllanAssiduity Since: Dec, 1969
#65: Feb 13th 2011 at 5:10:16 AM

"They"? Who is "they"?

And I think most people would frown on a doctor who did not do his all to save a patient's life. Or, indeed, anyone who could have saved someone's life, but did not.

edited 13th Feb '11 5:10:36 AM by AllanAssiduity

Miijhal Since: Jul, 2011
#66: Feb 13th 2011 at 6:43:05 AM

An individuals life is their own. If they want to end it, they should be allowed to. Just because others have formed an attachment to that life does not mean that they have any obligation to continue living. Forcing an individual to live against their will is a horrid idea.

I'll note that, no, suicidal individuals shouldn't just be left to go and off themselves. But they shouldn't be forced against their will to live, either. They should be stopped for a moment, have options presented to them, aid provided, and then, if they should still find that such things are insufficient, they should be allowed to end their life.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#67: Feb 13th 2011 at 8:10:40 AM

People aren't given a choice as to whether they live in the first place. Ergo, it doesn't seem fair to deny them the choice to whether to continue to live.

If someone says we live in a crapsack world, why shouldn't we let them out? Yes-friends and family suffer. Tough-they can go pop themselves too if they want to. That's life: it's harsh, it's cold, and occasionally, you want out. You want people not to depress their loved ones, convince them that the suffering of their loved ones outweighs their desire to die-not through force, but through education.

No one is saying we can't or shouldn't take steps to prevent suicide (well, maybe Tongpu). But no one should have the right to prevent an individual from taking their own life; it just creates a state of tyranny. The fact that you may not perceive the world as one not worth living in doesn't mean that the perceptions of others will lead to the same conclusion.

SilentReverence adopting kitteh from 3 tiles right 1 tile up Since: Jan, 2010
adopting kitteh
#68: Feb 13th 2011 at 8:42:43 AM

It's very easy to say "people have a right to die, it's nobody elses business" when you've never actually been close to someone who commited suicide. I have, so I have to say no.
And this right here is an important part of the problem. That you feel bad because someone emotionally close to you offed eyself means, precisely, that you shouldn't have a say on whether other people are morally or legally allowed to do the same. Idiot raped your child to death? You are not allowed to dictate the punishment, more importantly you are not allowed to execute the punishment. And you are not allowed to impose such punishment to other cases that have nothing to do with you. Yeah, it sounds anticlimatic and unfair, but that's how we somehow ended up agreeing to live with each other.

More than that, you say your feelings about this case dictate that other people shouldn't be allowed to take their own lives, but what? You have not explained the motives nor set up a precedent. Did that person off eyself for the emo? For the Lulz? Then yeah, it is understandable that you disagree, but at the same time means you can't impose such judgment on people who have a fair justification to off themselves. Did that person off eyself because ey had no clear choice that would have improved their condition? Say, unemployed with ten children, bills and a lawsuit keep coming. Twelveth in the list of national transplants with inescapable pain that your doctor won't strongly palliate because "I'll be sued if I give you morphine". And the hospital bills will ruin your family. What do?

It is not your fault if you feel overly pressured by such situations — on the contrary, I'd doubt of your sanity if you didn't — and in no way that means you are obligued to take any of all the "exits" that only provide more suffering. If you have a wall of spikes behind and are faced with a chasm, then it is not your fault that you take one of those two choices.

One thing that we have somewhat agreed about as humanity is that we shouldn't prolong others's suffering. At that point, the blame is on society, both as a group of people and as an intitutionalization of people, that you are left only with bad exits. Even worse for those who are terminally ill, however that is defined, as it is usually a point where not even society can do something that provides a better choice (eg.: science is not miraculously going to have instant organ regenration tomorrow, no matter how much SCIENCE we put into it).

To be fair, I don't see why are we discussing whether people have a right to die. They do have a right to live, and we have agreed, as humanity, that they can choose how to live. That includes, by extension, "live shortly". More to the point is whether we do have the right to ask for our death, which I don't see why not given that we do allow people to legally arrange for the event of other people's deaths, and whether one has the right to assist another person in their death (under the above condition of being asked, I'd guess). I don't see why would that be a problem if the choice, on both parties, is properly documented. In fact I'd venture that this could be easily done with a clause similar to the usonian concept of "Fair Use" (eg.: something like "it is still a crime but we are letting it pass because it is better for everyone to allow it"), which would allow for the propagation of merit-based support systems instead of people in medical ranks, for example, being legally bound to be able to "twist" their opinions on the subject of a patient.

Come to think of it, doctors are a large part of the problem too, but I'd rather leave that for the point where we do agree that people can ask to die, and we start discussing the regulation of such systems.

edited 13th Feb '11 8:46:04 AM by SilentReverence

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joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#69: Feb 13th 2011 at 10:46:18 AM

It's very easy to say "people have a right to die, it's nobody elses business" when you've never actually been close to someone who commited suicide. I have, so I have to say no.
And this right here is an important part of the problem. That you feel bad because someone emotionally close to you offed eyself means, precisely, that you shouldn't have a say on whether other people are morally or legally allowed to do the same. Idiot raped your child to death? You are not allowed to dictate the punishment, more importantly you are not allowed to execute the punishment. And you are not allowed to impose such punishment to other cases that have nothing to do with you.
This. The same goes for 'I had to watch my unlce suffer' sob stories supporting euthanasia.

edited 13th Feb '11 10:47:53 AM by joeyjojo

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Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#70: Feb 13th 2011 at 12:32:59 PM

All I really think is that we should be allowed to stop suicidal people from commiting suicide, (by force, if necessary) and that depression should be treated.

Depression is not untreatable, I know because I overcame the worst of my depression. (which itself was the direct result of my own mothers suicide because of her depression) At my very worst, I felt as if I could not stand to exist for another moment. If my friends and family had just thought, "it's not our problem, he's free to make his own decisions, we can't interfere" I might not be alive.

People who attempt suicide should be treated for it. There is no point in jailing/fining people for attempted suicide, though, as some countries do. That's just counterproductive and cruel.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71: Feb 13th 2011 at 12:38:53 PM

The problem is that you're imposing your values on them when you say things like that. And after the fact, it's certainly true that a large percentage of people would be happy that you did. But "repeat offenders" are those who have demonstrated that it is their intended will to die-infringing upon that is a violation of human rights.

Not that it's in societies best interest to not violate said rights, but I think that the general ability to "check-out" supersedes any benefit to society in not having the proverbial get-out-of-jail-free card.

CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#72: Feb 13th 2011 at 1:17:21 PM

[up][up]You got over your depression. As did I. Many aren't as lucky.

Forcing someone to live is barbaric, and essentially forced imprisonment but with the entire mortal world being the prison.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
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#73: Feb 13th 2011 at 2:35:38 PM

It's not exactly barbaric. Suicide is mainly illegal under Judeo-Christian based morality. Not expressing an opinion, just arguing semantics.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#74: Feb 13th 2011 at 2:36:27 PM

It's tyrannical and if you believe people don't have a right to die, you are most certainly Hitler.

Ultrayellow Unchanging Avatar. Since: Dec, 2010
Unchanging Avatar.
#75: Feb 13th 2011 at 2:40:17 PM

Well then you're Stalin! So there!

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

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