Re: Right to Die:

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Spawned from the "Republicans Attempt to Redefine Rape" topic.

So; should there be a "right to die"? And, furthermore, should things such as assisted suicide be made legal?

A bit brief, but this was merely made to take the off-topic stuff in the other thread away from it. If this is duplicated or old stuff, feel free to cleanse it with all the fires of whatever.
2 TheyCallMeTomu12th Feb 2011 10:52:19 AM , Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Of course there needs to be a right to die, and assisted suicide-while not a right-is certainly in the public's interest.
While I'm at it: if anyone wants me to edit the OP to include subsequent topics that are relevant to the original, feel free to ask.

Serious note: agree with Tomu. If someone wishes to die, and it's not just "I've had one bad day", they should be allowed to shuffle off this mortal coil.

edited 12th Feb '11 10:55:45 AM by AllanAssiduity

4 Cojuanco12th Feb 2011 12:36:01 PM from Irvine, CA, US
No. Even if the person is begging you to do it, it's still murder.
5 SilentReverence12th Feb 2011 12:39:54 PM from 3 tiles right 1 tile up
adopting kitteh
Well, one thing certain, even if there is a right to die, I guess it applies to autodeath, not to assisted death. Then again, under proof that the assisted death was requested (eg.: in medical cases) I don't think there is truly a problem.
6 Pykrete12th Feb 2011 12:43:46 PM from Viridian Forest
What bugs me about applying the right to die this broadly is not only the flawed notion that your life will never get better, but also the selfish notion that you're the only one that matters. Perhaps if you were the only person who would be affected by your death, you'd have the right to die, but chances are this is not the case.
Gotta trope, dood!
I believe there should be a right to die, yes. The decision to say "Fuck this shit, I'm done playing the game of life" should belong to anyone who wants to make it. Now, should we do everything in our power to say "Hey man, calm down, you don't really want to, chill"? absolutely. But if a person absolutely wants to die? They should be legally allowed to do that. If they're unable to, and someone else is willing to help them, that person should be legally allowed to.

Also, it's still homicide, but not murder.
They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
8 TheyCallMeTomu12th Feb 2011 12:48:42 PM , Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Okay, time to do this again-

All of society-all of existence-is a series of choices. However, even if the individual has the ability to make choices, they can only choose from those choices available to them. When we, as a society, limit choices-individual liberty-we are imposing a cost, but there are benefits to imposing those costs.

The Right to Die is ultimately the one choice that should never be denied to an individual-as, by virtue of denying them their right to choose to deny, you deny them the right to not have to play by your rules. All entities should have the right to self terminate-that's not to say that such entities are the only ones that matter, it is merely the position that, to said entity, they are the entity that matters the most.

Denying the Right to Die is tyrannical by its very nature.

Note, however, that it is essential to not conflate rights with optimal results. A murderer who wins his trial has the right to go free-that does not make it the optimal result. Likewise, the suicidal have the right to die, but that does not make it the optimal result; society can still attempt to dissuade them, so long as ultimately, the choice is in their hands.

edited 12th Feb '11 12:50:58 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

bitchy queen
I think people should have the Right to Die along with euthanasia and all that. At the same time, I believe it has to be regulated so that people who have clinical depression or something like that can get the help they need (as opposed to just letting them kill themselves).
"Without a fairy, you're not even a real man!" ~ Mido from Ocarina of Time

10 Grain12th Feb 2011 01:02:54 PM from South Northwest Earth
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Should people who suffer from clinical depression should be allowed to commit suicide whenever they feel like it? It could be argued that the desire to die is a mental illness in itself.

If not a symptom of mental illness, the desire to die is a symptom of tangible problems in one's life. It would be better to help people to fix their problems rather than enable them to recklessly destroy everything.

Suicide impacts other people. Should a provider be allowed to abandon his/her dependents?

Suicide is not always okay. I believe that there are situations which justify suicide, but suicide should not be a default right that everyone has at all times. In my mind, the best action would be to create a bureaucracy where people can apply for the right to commit suicide. If their profiles justify suicide, it shall be allowed.
@OP: Absolutely, for the terminally ill, at least.
@Grain: Why? A bureaucracy is maybe the worst determinator of whether or not you should be allowed to die.

I can see the "nobody who wants to die is qualified to make the decision" argument, but I don't think it really holds. Someone who can think clearly enough to kill themselves should be thinking at least as clearly as someone who kills someone else, and we hold the second person morally responsible so therefore the first person must be able to make a choice.

So I would support people having the right to kill themselves, not saying that it's ever a good decision, but rather only that you own your own life and society should not refuse you the right to do things with or to your own life, no matter how stupid they are.

This is also not to say that suicidal people ought not to be dissuaded, or that they shouldn't get help.
I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
13 TheyCallMeTomu12th Feb 2011 01:30:41 PM , Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Temporary insanity type circumstances: The person would be acting against their persistent will and as thus it is an obligation to stop them. In the event that after being prevented from killing themselves they still want to die, then they should not be prevented from doing so.
14 Pykrete12th Feb 2011 01:35:14 PM from Viridian Forest
for the terminally ill, at least.

I can understand and accept this much.
15 BestOf12th Feb 2011 01:40:31 PM from Finland , Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Clinically depressed people should be given treatment and suicide should be prevented until the treatment (medicine and therapy, most likely) has time to work. When the worst is over and the patient is able to return home without killing themself, you can assume that they can fight suicidal urges enough to be able to make a responsible decision (if it's suicide, then at least people tried).

I don't support forcefully prolonging anyone's life if even medicine and therapy doesn't work, but if neither treatment has had time to work (a couple of months or so), the patient can't be considered sufficiently sane to make the decision to self-terminate.

I've told this elsewhere on the fora, but I've been diagnosed with depression and was treated, and it's been years since I got better, so I haven't been taking pills or seeing psychiatrists for several years now. I'm giving this background 'cause it may (or may not) put some sort of perspective behind what I said.

So in my case, if no one had prevented me from killing myself back when I was at the worst of my disease, it would have been horrible neglect. It was absolutely necessary, and definitely the right thing to do, to confine me and make sure I had no means of suicide available for the time it took for the medicine to take effect. After it did, my recovery was very fast; another proof that depression really is (mostly) chemical in nature.

But after the pills took effect and I was visibly over the worst of it, and I had arrived at a circumstance that made suicide the optimal choise - and in a way where I was no longer depressed - I believe I should have had the choise to kill myself, and I still do consider it my right if such circumstances arrive.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
16 Deboss12th Feb 2011 01:51:07 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
So; should there be a "right to die"? And, furthermore, should things such as assisted suicide be made legal?

Yes, no. Yes a person has a right to die. No on the second because it implies others have an obligation to help them die. They do have a right to seek assistance though.
17 TheyCallMeTomu12th Feb 2011 01:51:37 PM , Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Assisted suicide should be legal but not mandatory.
@Deboss: If someone doesn't have the ability to hook a garden hose to the tailpipe on their car and run the engine with them inside, then how are they going to clock out by themselves? Someone must help them.
19 BestOf12th Feb 2011 02:00:08 PM from Finland , Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Yeah, you can't force anyone to mercy-kill, but don't punish them if they do. Just make sure they can prove it was a mercy kill and that it was requested by the patient (using that word for convenience).

Also, in cases where justified demands for mercy kill-are likely, make sure there's at least a couple of people around who can do the deed (like in war zones; whoever wants to be put out of their misery would sure be very disappointed if none of their comrades would be willing to help.)

edited 12th Feb '11 2:00:36 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
20 joeyjojo12th Feb 2011 02:04:51 PM from South Sydney: go the bunnies!
Happy New Year!
If someone doesn't have the ability to hook a garden hose to the tailpipe on their car and run the engine with them inside, then how are they going to clock out by themselves? Someone must help them.

Does the right to arms mean we should give people guns? Does the right to free speech mean tax funded dictation classes?

  1. hashtagsarestupid
21 TheyCallMeTomu12th Feb 2011 02:08:30 PM , Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
No one is saying that assisted suicide is a right. We're just saying that it's a social good.
22 Deboss12th Feb 2011 02:10:39 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I didn't mean it in a "you can't help somebody kill themselves" but more in a "you don't have to help somebody kill themselves if you don't want to". I'd personally be perfectly willing to do so as it's polite.
@Deboss: Oh, ok.

@joeyjojo: Tax funded? Like in a school? Are you saying that they shouldn't teach kids diction?
24 BestOf12th Feb 2011 02:13:38 PM from Finland , Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Barring extreme physical restrictions (like paralysis), anyone who really wants to die can kill themself. Find a high place and jump or something.

That said, making assisted suicide extremely easy and cheap would be possible with volunteers (like Red Cross people or so) and Nitrogen. Costs practically nothing and is painless, and in fact it's apparently a pleasant experience, with the possibility of experiencing euphoria just before the loss of consciousness. It's almost almost riskless for everyone else if the operation is planned properly, which very likely would be the case. Just put a face mask of the patient and connect the mask to a tank of Nitrogen. Wait 5 minutes or so. Done.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
If someone's in so much pain that they can barely move, then they almost certainly would need help with that.

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