"Men With Boobs" Effect in Fiction

It sounds to me like you're projecting what you want to see in a story. I personally find that stuff a distraction from the plot, and I don't find it implausable at all. Not everyone thinks about sex all the time, and even if they do they're probably going to be distracted by all the exciting shit that happens in the story, at least in genre fiction. I mean, there are loads of people with low sex drives; are you saying that they aren't "realisitc"? If the most interesting part of a character is their sex life and you're not writing porn (actually, even if you are), then it's probably a boring character.

I agree with Night. I'm from Alaska and I know lots of women who would fit the "men with boobs" stereotype ^*! One of them has a facial scar from getting into a knife-fight in a bar at 13. She's now a construction worker with a huge gun collection. They fight "like men", drink "like men", swear "like men", and do "manly" things like camping or hunting or fixing cards. And why wouldn't they? Those sort of skills are useful for survival no matter your sex/gender. If I were to write a character based on one of these real life women, would it still count as an example of "men with boobs"? This goes double for video games, which despite years of progress are still primarily about running around killing stuff. Being nurturing and empathetic isn't going to do you much good when you're fighting cyborgs in a post-apocalyptic future, at least from a gameplay perspective. For most genres of game, it seems like a female character with traditionally masculine traits is going to be the most believable option.

Also, the idea of "repeatability" in video games baffles me. I relate to the characters I'm playing because they move when I press a button, and because when they die I have to replay the level. Whether they're man or woman, animal, vegetable or mineral is irrelevant. I mean can women relate more to Ms. Pac-Man because she has a six-pixel wide bow?

To be fair to video games, most games are msotly about getting form point A to point B. Games are that games while you can control the flow of the story, it is ultimately a game with preprogrammed responses to certain actions.

I wrote that post a long time ago, and I've revised my thoughts since then. Chill out.

My overall point is that the conscious removal of any signs of sexuality and eroticism often betray what we know about human psychology, specifically how relationships are formed, altered and disintegrated. I've no problem with asexuality in fiction so long as it is congruent and consistent with the setting and whatever goals the writer has in mind for the characters. Don't give me a story where a woman walking around in what is essentially BDSM attire is supposed to be explicitly celibate. This is precisely the case with Ivy of Soul Calibur. Her sexualized appearance does not mean she has to be an erotic character, but given what we know about semiotics, interpersonal bonds and generally what people intend to communicate to others through subtext, her outfit makes no sense in the scheme of her objectives and the setting. This is still a big problem in video games.

I'm also not suggesting that eroticism be an omnipresent force in every character's mind. Instead, any subtext of sexuality, sexiness and eroticism should match both characterization, tone and environment. I actually find it refreshing to see stories where two individuals don't have a romantic or sexual bond. I don't like obligatory sex scenes or designated love interests. I also don't like stories where no one presents even a shred of intimacy in a setting where that lack of intimacy makes zero sense.

It's the same reason why I don't like stories about egalitarian pacifist societies that have seemingly infinite supplies of food, shelter and other resources for no apparent reason. Your world has to be consistent with the rules you've set up, and you need to demonstrate cause-effect relationships and the natural balance of your world. If the soldiers in your sci-fi story are genetically engineered to have no sex drive, you need to explain things such as why you even bother having sexual diphormism if that's what you're putting in your story. To paraphrase a fiction instructor, if you kill off all the lawyers in your story, you had better explain how justice is carried out. If you delete money as a form of currency, the economics of your world needs to reflect the ramifications of that deletion. How you deal with sex or the lack of sex in your fiction should follow the same process.

I don't expect everyone to share this opinion, but there's nothing bizarre about what I'm suggesting here.

No, I'm not. Again, it's a matter of authenticity, consistency and plausibility. When people criticize a work of fiction for being "unrealistic", the word they're probably looking for more often is "implausible". There's an important distinction between the two that affects world building.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. One of the reasons why people engage in the creative process is to project their world view. I'm very tempted to say this is the primary reason why people pursue artistic endeavors. However, all writers must be aware that the audience has the right to reject their work if it espouses a world view that is untenable. If I write a story where all of the women are conspicuously objectified, marginalized and rendered gloried sex toys for the male characters, unless I'm using that as social commentary (which is another intellectual exercise all on its own), my audience has every right to call me a misogynistic creep. Ignoring that rejection is part of the reason why some game developers look stupid when they try to come up with excuses for why they don't have more female characters in positive, active roles.

EDIT: Also bear in mind the distinction between sex as a physical act and sex as an idea. It's perfectly fine for a busy, obsessive detective to get teased by one of his co-workers that he needs to get laid. It doesn't have to lead to a scene where he proceeds to actually have sex with someone. That small exchange, however, will provide the audience with the indication that he is a very busy person, and it also maintains conservation of detail.

edited 10th Jan '14 7:56:27 PM by Aprilla

This is one of the things that bugs me about Attack on Titan. It has the typical manga-ish type of character relationships and attitudes about sex. But, this is a world where humankind has been on its last legs for 100 years. And every soldier is basically part of Red Shirt Army where lots and lots of people die. (The story actually says they lose 30 humans for every one Titan destroyed.)

Now, in Real Life, people would fucking like mad. Knowing that you could die at any moment, knowing that you barely survived being killed, knowing that humanity is losing numbers by the hundreds on a weekly basis, everybody would be humping like crazy. Civilians, at the very least, would be having orgies by the hour. And it's not like people have had their sex drives removed—we know that there's a sex slavery ring going on, and in the most recent chapter, a couple of bad guys try to rape someone. So yeah, if you're a bad guy, it seems your hormones work just fine.

And, given the egalitarian nature of the military (there are a large number of women), and no indication of technology necessary for effective birth control, it would be equally likely that heterosexual sex between soldiers would be taboo. There would be NO WAY the military could handle many of its female soldiers getting pregnant. So most likely, female soldiers would have sex with each other, and male soldiers would have sex with each other (and civilian women). And considering the high mortality rate for the military, the ability have sex with/rape civilian women as a matter of course would be an incentive to sign up.

But no. None of this is ever brought up.

Good observation.

For all its faults, Blue Gender, by contrast, handles post-apocalyptic sexual activity fairly well.

That might have to do with the fact that despite it coming of as "edgy" Attack on Titan is still a "kids" show.

Or at least, it is as far as I know.

It very much is. Word of God explicitly said it was meant to simulate feelings of isolation and depression felt by Japanese youth.

Plus, I doubt that citizens wouldn't necessarily have regular orgies in such a society.

So you're...agreeing with Zeal.

I was using hyperbole for the sake of half-humor.

I don't think orgies would be a regular occurrence in that kind of environment, but I wouldn't bat an eyelash if it were.

Is it really that difficult to create a character who happens to be female?

Young Adult I think is the term by marketing.

Because you can't be an adult and not have sex...

Who was that directed to?

Because if you're talking about my critique of Attack On Titan, the point is that if you put people in that particular situation, their hormones will go out of control. Not everyone, but a huge number of people. Especially those in the military.

Viewpoint is extremely important.

Alternately depression will be so endemic that nobody has sex at all. Just sayin'.

Actually, history shows us, that when bad stuff happens, people get kinda horny. Post black plague, for example, the clothing changed to be much more sexual (by their standards, anyway) and the image of a pregnant woman was a mainstream fetish.

It's all pretty fascinating, really. Low population results in stuff that we don't tend to think of, because we never have to experience a world wide plague, or mass annihilation or anything like that.

edited 16th Jan '14 1:28:19 PM by MrAHR

The problem is you're both confusing "the disaster has happened" with "the disaster is currently ongoing and oh by the way you'll be eaten by a Titan next week".

The psychology you're looking for isn't what you think it is. We're talking about current-siege-mentality with plenty of FUD rather than everyone being happy to be alive. Most of Attack On Titan takes place when there is not even a perception of safety. One may not eat drink and be merry for tomorrow they die. There is only "they die"; the past and the future are abstractions that do not exist.

Maybe at the point when Eren closes the gap some orgies should break out, but the main characters know it's a hollow victory and Titans exist which can break the wall, so they're probably not going to participate.

edited 16th Jan '14 1:50:21 PM by Night

I would also guess that probably the widespread famine in the world would probably put a damper on sex drives and successful pregnancies, as well.

But the point is that unless the viewpoint has strong feelings about something one way or the other, it tends to get left out. If the people in Attack on Titan are private about their sex lives and Eren has no interest in sex there's little reason for it to come up much.

No, that's not true at all. We see quite well that people in Ao T thought they were completely safe behind the walls before the Zhangshima attack, and even afterward, many of them still prefer to take an ostrich-type approach to it. They want desperately to believe in the illusion that they'll be safe, at least for now, to the point that we actually we people beyond the third wall think that a Titan attack is basically Someone Else's Problem.

And it's not like even soldiers don't have downtime. They have places where they feel safe, even if they know it's only temporary.

It may be true that sex decreases during a famine, but I'm not too privy to statistics or numbers on the subject.

edited 16th Jan '14 4:19:18 PM by KingZeal

Estrogen and testosterone levels decrease when you're starving so you're less inclined to have sex. Menstruation can stop in women so you're not going to have many babies either. I suppose the people in the innermost wall are probably going to have enough to eat but if they're also in "somebody else's problem" mode their sexual habits will probably not be any different than normal.

But the people in Wall Rose aren't "starving", either. Food may be scarce, but no one whom we've seen looks like they haven't seen a sandwich in a while. Even if that's just artistic dissonance, while we hear about how hard food is to come by, we haven't really seen it have much effect on quality of life.

As for Wall Sina, I can buy that they don't feel much fear of imminent annihilation, but the people of Wall Rose are at the cozy place between "it's safe now" and "we could die at any minute" that leads to crazy increases in sexual activity.