The Trope does not match this name.: Zero Sum Game

Zero Sum Game means, according to The Other Wiki:

"In game theory and economic theory, zero-sum describes a situation in which a participant's gain or loss is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the other participant(s)."

However, the trope we have under Zero Sum Game is actually: "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"—"the more it changes, the more it's the same thing", usually translated as "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

Let's rename this trope, "The More Things Change" and put REAL Zero Sum examples under this title.

Real Zero Sum examples, besides economic ones, would be ones where someone thinks someone has to lose for them to win. Where working together can get you more then fighting someone, but they refuse to do that.

edited 7th Feb '11 5:51:52 AM by Fanra

Is there any actual misuse? Renames generally don't go through unless people are actually using it wrong.

Or, as in this case, because we are using a pre-existing term, but using it wrong. That simply invites misuse or non-use. In this case, the trope is old enough to have discussion dating back to before the change in the discussion pages (which was early in 2010 — so at least a year) but it has only 41 wicks and 40 inbounds. The wick count is relatively healthy, but the inbounds count is not.

What's the difference between this and Status Quo Is God?

This is kind of mix between Status Quo Is God and Shoot the Shaggy Dog.

Does anyone object to splitting this off into "The More Things Change" and putting real Zero Sum stuff under Zero Sum Game?

Also, can someone think of a better title then "The More Things Change"? I'm not sure if we are supposed to use "The" to begin trope names if we can avoid it.

I'm not sure that "The More Things Change" is a good name either, given that that's another pre-existing phrase that doesn't really mean the same thing as what's being used here — or, at least, is using a general phrase for a specific trope.

To be honest, the more I read this trope the less certain I am that we need it. There's Status Quo Is God, Evil Only Has to Win Once, Balance Between Good and Evil, The World Is Always Doomed... Looking through the examples, I can't find one that doesn't fit somewhere else (or is used in the sense of the economic zero-sum game).

(Note that the definition of this term from economics is very different: A zero-sum game in that context is one with a finite amount of resources to shuffle around, so if one person gets something it must be due to someone else losing it. All of the pluses are balanced by minuses, so the net sum is zero. For the most part, modern economists consider this a logical fallacy nowadays — at least insofar as most real-life conditions are concerned.)

I like The More Things Change except that I am not sure if it really captures the distinction between the current Zero Sum Game trope and Status Quo Is God. From what I can tell, the current Zero Sum Game trope is about someone seeming to make some progress, but then the situation always resets to equilibrium eventually. I think there is a distinction there so I would opt for a rename over cutting this trope. Of course, I would be interested in how the current Zero Sum Game trope already fits under another trope.

edited 8th Feb '11 8:08:03 AM by LouieW

I think there's a good distinction, too, especially with the example for standard superhero comics. The specific names and faces might change, but nothing's ever going to be permanently different. Same, I think, with most MMORPGs. There's a trope there.

The current name, however, needs to go.

edited 8th Feb '11 4:28:56 PM by nrjxll

Necromancy bump.

Needs a different name, that's for certain. Maybe Red Queens Race? (A Red Queen's Race is one in which you have to run as fast as you can just to stay where you are.)

(I came to this page looking for actual examples of a Zero Sum Game, like, for instance, in Puella Magi Madoka Magica.)

I propose "Stable Equilibrium" for a trope name. It contrasts with Unstable Equilibrium, and it's a proper use of the term (things tend to move towards a stable equilibrium, and away from an unstable one).

Well, I guess it depends on exactly what we're talking about. If success is useless but failure actually hurts, then "Red Queen's Race" is more appropriate. If success is useless and the universe has a built-in Deus ex Machina generator, then "Stable Equilibrium" is probably better.

Status Quo Is Dog?

Maybe we should have a contest like Lyttle Lytton where we come up with the worst possible snowclones.

Agree with the rename, and I of the proposed names, I like Stable Equilibrium best so far.

"Stable Equilibrium" borders on the Department of Redundancy Department.

Equilibrium n. 1. A condition in which all acting influences are canceled by others, resulting in a stable, balanced, or unchanging system. (Emph. mine)

Negative Feedback is probably too out there for most people.

Might require a little Genius Bonus.

I do have to push Red Queens Race, as it's more specific than Stable Equilibrium (which incidentally is NOT Department of Redundancy Department, you can have unstable equilibria).

There's also the issue that having the tropes Stable Equilibrium and Unstable Equilibrium not be direct opposites seems a little off.

It's not technically redundant, no, but saying "stable equilibrium" is sort of like saying "two-legged man". It's the kind of thing that you'd only say when it's important to distinguish from the unstable (or one-legged) kind. By itself, with no context, it seems awkward and feels redundant, even though it's really not.

Anyway, I think we both agree that the name is not ideal, so no biggie.

I do like Red Queens Race, but is it too obscure? How about Enforced Equilibrium? Change Is Useless?

There is now a page action crowner for this trope here.

I think that if this trope is renamed, we can start talking about possibly having a trope for Zero Sum Game as that term is commonly used. I am not sure we need to put that on this crowner, but I could be wrong about that.

Through The Looking Glass is a classic novel, and the term is used in scientific circles as well (in biology the term is often applied to constantly evolving parasite-host interactions, for instance).

Here is the biological use of the term. I think it fits perfectly with the idea of "you have to keep saving the world, it won't stay saved", which, while connected to Evil Only Has to Win Once, isn't the same as it.

The World Is Always Doomed is really a subtrope of Red Queens Race in which the thing you're fighting off is actually of epic proportions; such a Red Queens Race can occur on a much smaller scale, like in, say, Batman, where if Batman gives up, Gotham will descend into anarchy, but the rest of the world would be largely unaffected.

Yes, Zero Sum Game should be a trope. There are many fictions where this is in effect (any 'verse with a limited amount of magic or divinity to go around, plus situations like Puella Magi Madoka Magica with the whole hope/despair thing), and it's in effect in Real Life as the First Law of Thermodynamics.

edited 1st Aug '11 1:44:30 AM by magic9mushroom

We seem to have a tie between renaming and cutting. May I suggest that if the tie continues, renaming is the less drastic option?

Bump. Do we need a 2:1 ratio for this kind of crowner? If yes we have a problem, no option has enough support, but the option to do nothing is the least popular one.

Just needs more cooking time, I think.