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Unclear/split-worthy?: Dream People

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Shale Mighty pirate! from Int'l House of Mojo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Mighty pirate!
#1: Feb 5th 2011 at 7:47:49 AM

I have a YKTTW open for the twist when a character who appeared to be a flesh-and-blood member of the cast turns out to be another character's hallucination. One of the responders pointed me to Dream People as a possible sister/same trope, and I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is. It definitely covers some of the same ground, although it's the character and not the twist. But it also seems to cover characters who are independent sentient beings but for some reason not "real", like Tidus, Jecht and the other Zanarkandians in Final Fantasy X, and characters within a dreamscape like like everybody in the Wizard Of Oz movie. Those feel very much like different tropes to me, and the description is not what you'd call specific.

So, does this need a rewrite with bad examples removed? A split?

edited 5th Feb '11 11:04:51 AM by Shale

LouieW Loser from Babycowland Since: Aug, 2009
Loser
#2: Feb 5th 2011 at 9:17:47 AM

Given the lack of use of Dream People, I agree that it needs some work. I think that the YKTTW is significantly better written so if only it or Dream People can stay, I would vote for the YKTTW.

If the YKTTW does get launched then I think that Dream People should be about characters who are merely dreamed up in general or live in a Dream Land.

I could also see Dream People being used as a super trope too. I am not totally sure about this, but maybe Dream People should get sent back to YKTTW so people can work on what exactly it is about.

edited 5th Feb '11 9:20:45 AM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
Indalecio Since: Jan, 2001
#3: Feb 5th 2011 at 9:50:48 AM

I was the one who originally created and launched Dream People, which is also the reason I brought it up. This trope seems to emphasize a reveal where otherwise ordinary folks turn out to be imaginary. They're related tropes, but as I think about it more, they're not really the same.

Shale Mighty pirate! from Int'l House of Mojo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Mighty pirate!
#4: Feb 6th 2011 at 4:26:32 AM

How does this grab you as a distinction?

Dream People: Characters who everybody can interact with, but are, for one reason or another, not "real people" - holograms, magic illusions, residents of a Dream World, etc.

Imaginary All Along (or whatever it ends up being called): As written. Characters who initially seem to be flesh and blood but turn out to be the hallucination of a single person.

edited 6th Feb '11 4:26:47 AM by Shale

LouieW Loser from Babycowland Since: Aug, 2009
Loser
#5: Feb 6th 2011 at 9:33:35 AM

Shale, I think that sounds like a very good distinction. Do you think any of the examples under Dream People would need to be moved to fit those descriptions though?

edited 6th Feb '11 9:34:10 AM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
Shale Mighty pirate! from Int'l House of Mojo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Mighty pirate!
SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#7: Feb 8th 2011 at 7:08:36 AM

^^^I'd leave holograms out of this. When holograms were originally a part of Dream People's YKTTW, the whole thing started to take on a very ugly shape when characters lacking a tangible, physical form but have very, very real personalities (for example, the Emergency Medical Hologram from Star Trek Voyager) started appearing on the examples list.

This trope's history with holograms has almost always exclusively listed Artificial Intelligences whose interactions with those around them are as real as anything else. Nothing about them is ever a "dream," "imaginary," or a "hallucination."

EDIT: Given that both the name Dream People and its description totally suck, anyway, I'd just say we revamp it and modify it with content from Shale's much better YKTTW.

edited 8th Feb '11 7:18:00 AM by SeanMurrayI

Shale Mighty pirate! from Int'l House of Mojo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Mighty pirate!
#8: Feb 8th 2011 at 7:45:31 AM

Fair point, but I'm still fairly convinced there are two tropes here. Neither the cast of Links Awakening nor Tyler Durden are "real", but they're not-real in very different ways.

edited 8th Feb '11 7:45:43 AM by Shale

Indalecio Since: Jan, 2001
LouieW Loser from Babycowland Since: Aug, 2009
Loser
#10: Feb 8th 2011 at 7:56:06 AM

Shale, Well, I think the distinction works and there should be two tropes then.

I suppose Dream People might need a rename so people do not use it for the YKTTW type of dream characters. I imagine that a rename might help clarify the distinction between the two tropes, but I suppose renaming it is not totally necessary. I would support a rename if a really great name came along, but otherwise I think the trope just needs a better description.

edited 8th Feb '11 7:57:08 AM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d
SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#11: Feb 8th 2011 at 7:59:37 AM

I'd like a rename for Dream People. It sounds more like something I'd want to call a Tyler Durden character, anyway.

Like I said, both Dream People's name and description just plain suck.

Indalecio Since: Jan, 2001
#12: Feb 8th 2011 at 2:35:53 PM

The description could be better, but the title was supposed to be following a theme of Dream People, Dream Land, and Dream Apocalypse.

SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#13: Feb 8th 2011 at 2:51:21 PM

But that naming convention won't hold up very well if a proposed split is going to include things like holograms and magical projections (neither of which have anything to do with dreams and don't share enough of a dream's characteristics for it to make much sense to define something like that).

I'm only going to look at the phrase at face value. When I think of Dream People, I think specifically of characters who appear only in dreams, hallucinations, and imaginary fantasies. See Also: Imaginary Friend. Holograms and magical projected illusions have nothing to do with any of those things and should CERTAINLY not be called "dreams."

Indalecio Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Feb 10th 2011 at 2:55:56 PM

Alright. What do you suggest as an alternative title?

edited 10th Feb '11 2:56:16 PM by Indalecio

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#15: Feb 10th 2011 at 2:59:53 PM

Having played Final Fantasy X I got the name instantly. Negima's magic world people ect.

I do think that Holographic people should fit too DS 9 had a specific ep dealing with a village with people disappearing and such it turned out to be holograms but they didn't know that.

Now when you add shows like Yumekui Merry into the mix it gets confusing.

edited 10th Feb '11 3:05:43 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
Indalecio Since: Jan, 2001
#18: Feb 14th 2011 at 9:42:03 AM

Does anyone have an opinion regarding Illusory People? Also, how would one go about changing the trope title. Would you just create the new page, and make Dream People a redirect?

SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#19: Feb 14th 2011 at 9:51:04 AM

Well, first, a good question to ask would be, "What's the specific definition we're tying to Illusory People?"

I'd imagine we'd be looking for something like "A character thought to be real but turns out to be a holographic or magic projection," correct?

Indalecio Since: Jan, 2001
#20: Feb 14th 2011 at 2:51:55 PM

Dream People: Characters who everybody can interact with, but are, for one reason or another, not "real people" - holograms, magic illusions, residents of a Dream World, etc.

I thought we were going with the above definition. The question is, will we include virtual(holograms) as well?

edited 14th Feb '11 2:52:07 PM by Indalecio

Indalecio Since: Jan, 2001
#21: Feb 25th 2011 at 8:28:06 PM

So has everyone lost all interest?

SeanMurrayI Since: Jan, 2010
#22: Feb 25th 2011 at 9:08:14 PM

Well, we shouldn't include holograms that have Artificial Intelligence and are treated as real personalities by the other characters, such as the Emergency Medical Hologram on Star Trek Voyager... That kinda thing...

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#23: Feb 25th 2011 at 9:37:42 PM

That sounds about right - most examples should be cases where the character isn't considered "real" by the work - although it shouldn't be a hard rule, at least in my opinion.

Indalecio Since: Jan, 2001
#24: Feb 27th 2011 at 11:55:14 AM

So I propose this.

People in fiction are supposed to be tangible. Dream People are people who everybody can interact with, but are, for one reason or another, not "real people" - magic, illusions, or residents of a Dream World, etc. If the real characters know about the imaginary nature of the Dream People, they may or may not stop caring about their well-being.

Ghosts are a separate trope.

Virtual entities are covered by Projected Man and Digital Avatar.

Compare Imaginary Friend, Intangible Man.

See also Dream Land, Dream Apocalypse.

edited 27th Feb '11 11:56:11 AM by Indalecio

Kayube Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
#25: Feb 27th 2011 at 2:39:05 PM

The first line on that is troubling as it implies that all Dream People have to be intangible, which isn't the case.


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