Another Gender Topic: Does a Heroine need a Villainess?

Interesting subject for debate as I have come across this issue once or twice. Most of the time my friends tell me I should make a villainess for my heroine because either a) it would make for hot action scenes or b) having a woman fight a man leads to Unfortunate Implications. This really hasn't stopped me from making most of my villains males out of habit as I don't think there is much of an issue but it does make me think. Personally, I think both logics are fairly bad in this context.

I suggest you flip a coin to decide the gender. If gender isn't an issue you're tackling in your story there's no point in caring.

It's that we need to ask this question that goes to show that gender issues aren't really resolved yet.

As long as the heroine vs villain dynamic doesn't reek of "THROWING OFF THE SHACKLES OF MALE OPPRESION OMG MEN DON'T YOU KNOW THEY'RE BAD FOR BEING MALE?!" I don't see what the issue is.

There's also the other side in which a hero never actually fights a villainess, which is just as bad.

Not really, any more than a male hero needs a male villain.

That said, unless the story is specifically about sexism issues, it's best not to get too anvilicious about things. The heroine should kick a male villain's ass because she's a fucking heroine, not because of a hamfisted moral.

Likewise, a hero should feel free to punch a villainess through a brick wall.

edited 4th Feb '11 12:54:36 PM by Bur

What breadloaf said - it shouldn't be an issue. But, in today's age, it apparently is still an issue, although we've come a ways in that regard.

If I were you I would just flat out ignore this as an issue Sand. Just make whatever heroes and villains you want, regardless of gender. Just make sure you let them beat the shit out of eachother. Let male villains punch a female hero in the face a few times before she wins the fight, likewise with female villains and male heroes.

I wish more shows defied the whole "Can't hit a girl" thing.

If your villain isn't hitting a girl when he has to, he's a pretty crappy villain. If your hero isn't hitting a girl when he has to, he's a pretty crappy hero.

Not need as such, no.

On the other hand, stories with a female protagonist are rare enough, stories where both major plot-movers are female rarer still, and provided your priority is telling a good story, it's often cool to do something that is rarely done.

Just, for the love of god(dess), if you go with a female villain, steer clear of the Mother Gone Wrong, Lover Gone Wrong, and Vain Sorceress cliches. Let your villainess be evil in ways that are not female-specific.

@Karalora:

Let your villainess be evil in ways that are not female-specific.

Such as? I'm curious about this for my own writing as well as to hear your answer.

^^

And I'm sure he'll agree with me, but don't make her look like a stripper. Even a high class one.

At this point my brain is so constantly barraged with strippified female characters that are charged with sex appeal, that a female character who looks and dresses normal, and is still a huge part of the plot, really catches my eye and makes me like her more. Shit, I'm more attracted to females in media who avoid this and dress in armor that is actually practical. Maybe it's the Muslim effect in some heavily Islamic countries where seeing an ankle titillates them, I can kind of see where that comes from for them now. :P

Leave a little god damn mystery as to what she looks like naked, otherwise there's no room for imagination!

What about a female corrupt coroprate executive? I swear that one has to be borderline, if not completely always male. Or how about a bruiser? And not a svelt one either, big, muscley ugly as sin bruiser. Or a drug runner. Maybe someone who's competely psycho; she's just in it for the evuls. If she's after revenge, why not it be against a former teammate for double-crossing her? Maybe her sister's a real dick. Maybe she's an adrelaline junkie and the biggest high is going toe to toe with someone who could probably turn her into hamburger.

^^ I'm reminded of a Joan of Arc game I bought strictly because she was clad in full plate. Well, minus a helmet, but points for trying.

^ Dind't Sigourney Weaver play a corrupt exec in some 80's movie once?

edited 4th Feb '11 1:20:51 PM by pvtnum11

I always dig the female executive types because it's so easy for me to hate them. That catty and passive-aggressive attitude that some women can display in the board room makes it easy to just hate them so god damn much. Cold, heartless, utterly pragmatic, and a total bitch.

Such as? I'm curious about this for my own writing as well as to hear your answer.

Think of ten male villains. What are their motives and methods? Unless they're all serial rapists and evil, I don't know, heavyweight boxers or something, their brands of villainy could probably be wielded equally believably by female characters.

Try this mental exercise: gender-flip Batman's gallery of rogues, without changing anything else about the way they do business. The FTMs will probably seem faintly ridiculous, while the MTFs are still just as scary. This is because Catwoman and Poison Ivy are such girly villains, while the Joker, the Riddler and the Penguin are just quirky wicked people.

I agree, Barkey; Stripperiffic is completely and utterly overdone. For heroes, villains, sidekicks, what-have-you.

I do have this slight fear that if I ever get my novel-in-progress done, the publishers will slap some half-naked chick with tattoos and a butt-awning skirt on the cover. It's only a slight fear because, if it gets that far — at least I'm published.

What about a female corrupt coroprate executive?

...Wait, where have I heard that...

!!

I wouldn't agree with the reasons given by your friends. But I think there's a huge dearth of interesting villainesses, so I'd like to see more of them in general, regardless of the hero's gender. Unless there are in-story reasons for all the villains to be one gender, I'd go with variety as the default.

@Morven: Agreed, though I can't talk too much smack because my current project (Stakes) has a central protagonist who actually is a stripper.

@Kara: I already do that, I was just wondering how you'd answer. Example: I have a Dragon Lady character in one of my novels that would work just as well as a male (albeit a quirky and somewhat effeminate one). Conversely, my male Magnificent Bastard would work equally well as a Magnificent Bitch.

You are right though; its a good test to see if a character relies too heavily upon gender to function.

Edit: I didn't know Magnificent Bitch was a trope. Have to read that now.

edited 4th Feb '11 1:41:51 PM by drunkscriblerian

See, if they are actually a stripper, then that's fine.

And when it comes to the whole female secret agents using their sexuality as manipulation thing, that's fine, because it actually works in real life. A pretty girl can definitely get someone to spill minor details if you ask the right questions.

@Pkyrete You caught me!

Yes — if there's a good in-universe reason for them to dress like a stripper, that's a different matter.

Still, of the strippers I've known, about two-thirds of them don't dress stripperiffically outside of work much. I'd guess that doing it as a job kills any fascination for looking like that otherwise. Of course, I might not have a representative sample — does that mesh or clash with others' experience?

Thinking about my characters, they don't really dress anything like that. Not even the one who's the high-class hooker.

@Morven: The strippers I've known usually dressed comfortably outside of work, but did not have any problem showing skin if there was a practical reason to (i.e. it's hot out). One used to walk around her apartment naked in the summer, whether she had guests or not. Her reasoning? "My house, my rules. Don't like it? Don't visit."

Granted, she was an extreme example: I doubt aggressive nudism is common anywhere.

As to my character, Roulette's reason for being a stripper: "It's a great way to find people who need to be fucked with."