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Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#1001: Sep 9th 2013 at 4:23:59 PM

I'd challenge your friend to come up with hard scientific evidence about the virtues of Monamory. I don't think you'll find anything better for that than you will about Polyamory. Actual LOVE is not something you can scientifically pin down to start with. (Sure, you can get the chemical stuff, but I doubt you'll get any sort of rigorous study about the pitfalls of regular marriage or relationships that doesn't boil down to anecdotes.) As for safety . . . human interaction, and Love for certain, isn't safe. That's why there are millions of cases of abusive partners beating the tar out of their significant others throughout history.

Just find the precautions that work, stick to them, and don't let others break you from whatever path you feel is right for you.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1002: Sep 9th 2013 at 11:15:02 PM

Here's a paper that outlines proper methods of investigating poly

Here's a comprehensive study from 1992 by the Finnish government on relations and pairings and such.

Now I need to actually read that, and interpet it.

My friend has applied that tedious, work-intensive method for his own, monogamous relationship. It's not a matter of "going poly forever", it's a matter of taking precautions and not reinventing the wheel. As a rationalist, I can only approve. Plus, this will give me a solid, general view of the research on the topic, and help me have a better understanding of what is not known or understood yet. Perhaps something publishable might come of this, if I am very careful.

edited 9th Sep '13 11:28:12 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
SomeName Person Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Person
#1003: Sep 9th 2013 at 11:34:27 PM

Regarding the irresponsibility point:

  • If you are engaging in an ethical lifestyle while taking appropriate safety measures, and advocate both of those to people when discussing said lifestyle, I don't think you're responsible for people who follow that lifestyle in an unsafe/unethical manner.
  • If the number of people who adopt a behavior increases, the number of people who will apply that behavior irresponsibly will increase almost inevitably. (That's an anecdotal judgment, not a hard statistical one.) I suppose the concern is really that increasing literacy on the subject and causing more people to improperly apply the knowledge is more dangerous than just leaving existing people to take part in the activity despite the taboos and screw it up for lack of proper guidance. That seems a little difficult to collect decent statistics on.

Text I feel is necessary to append to every post.
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#1004: Sep 10th 2013 at 1:30:27 AM

My best friend refuses to even talk about polyamory with me anymore until I bring him hard scientific studies instead of an accumulation of anecdotes by biased sources. He says I'm being biased, that I'm being a fool for trusting "those internet people" so readily.

You're friend is smart not to trust those Internet people. They are a bunch of braggers and lairs. Dashing good looking however tongue

Well I'm sure plenty of people even fellow tropers have happy fulfilling polygamous relationships. I'm sceptical myself it can work in any statistical scale. Polyamory is not necessarily wrong or immoral. But is not normal, and I don't think it's simply because of 'small minded social prejudice' that it remains a non-choice for the vast majority of people in realationship.

hashtagsarestupid
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1005: Sep 10th 2013 at 1:40:51 AM

[up]Other possible factors might be: dishonesty/lack of integrity, lack of skill and will to express oneself and listen to others, lack of understanding of one's own emotions, irresponsibility and recklessness with feelings and with bodies, reliance on mind-altering substances for recreation... In other words, if you're an immature idiot, don't be poly. In fact, don't have sex at all, and save everyone a lot of suffering.

You know, whenever I hear of someone doing stuff like breaking up by cutting all communication without even giving an explanation, and then going on to say "it's for the best", or doing awful stuff behind the back of their partner because "what they don't know won't hurt them", I want to punch them in the face.

Okay, what are other reasons for not being poly besides "being insufficiently competent" and "being biased against it"? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking this in earnest. Who knows, maybe one of these other reasons would apply to me.

edited 10th Sep '13 1:51:53 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#1006: Sep 10th 2013 at 2:10:15 AM

Most defenders of polyamory stress the points you made and are quick to make the disclaimer 'polyamory is not for everybody'.

At which point I really have to ask: What makes a poly so special?

edited 10th Sep '13 2:11:37 AM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
#1007: Sep 10th 2013 at 2:15:51 AM

Mod Hat ON

Just because this thread was inactive for quite some time does not mean that the purpose of it has changed, Joey. It's still for questions about "Polyamory, How does it work?". And it's still not a place to attack it or make judgments about whether it's right or not, or whether people who practice it think that they're somehow "special".

Mod Hat OFF

edited 10th Sep '13 2:16:00 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1008: Sep 10th 2013 at 2:42:53 AM

I interpreted "special" in the neutral sense of "statistical outlier", in which case, if the assumption is that being honest, open-hearted, open-minded, and ethical is special, then you have to be special before you even even attempt to be poly. It's not being poly that makes you special, it's being special that allows you to be poly.

And what made these potentially-poly individuals special? How do you become poly-compliant? That's a very complicated question. How does one become, say, fit to be a leader? What parts do nature and nurture play? What is luck, and what is merit? What is a gift, and what is hard work? The answer depends on the individual, their history, their environment, and a bunch of other factors!

That said, I disagree with that initial premise. I may be wrong, but I believe that most people are poly-capable if only they set their mind to it and take measured, careful steps. That, however, does not mean they will prefer to maintain many different intimate relationships at any time in their lives. Plus, those skills and traits are useful regardless of whether you want to be poly or not, so I do believe everyone should acquire them.

edited 10th Sep '13 2:48:10 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#1009: Sep 10th 2013 at 3:31:57 AM

Yes sorry for the inflammatory wording. But seeing as monogamy as commonly practised is full of said insecurities, jealousies and exasperated trivialities, for a polyamorus relationship to even be survivable it needs to overcome some pretty major obstacles.

Jealousy towards one's love is a pretty fundamental emotion. People kill one another for it. Now people's yerning for exclusivity might just be an engraving of social expectations of relationships. But it might just be something that only a select few are ever not going to desire.

So to answer your question handle. the other reason one would have for not be poly besides "being insufficiently competent" and "being biased against it"? would be personal disinterest in pursuing sort of relationship.

hashtagsarestupid
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1010: Sep 10th 2013 at 3:34:46 AM

Okay, I know you didn't intend it like that, but it felt unsatisfactory to me. So let me rephrase my question; what makes one unable to be poly, regardless of preference or taste?

As for the common practice of monogamy, it's kind of like the common practice of car driving, child rearing, or account balancing; it's pretty damn clueless and terrible, and there's a lot of room for improvement, a lot of low-hanging fruit.

edited 10th Sep '13 3:36:19 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#1011: Sep 10th 2013 at 3:36:32 AM

They have got to be the lover's one and only.

hashtagsarestupid
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1012: Sep 10th 2013 at 3:50:05 AM

"They can't be poly because they must be mono"? This is Begging the Question. Try again; why must they be each other's one-and-only? What is it that makes the alternatives impossible?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#1013: Sep 10th 2013 at 4:20:32 AM

I don't get what you're trying to get at. What reason would some one want to be poly or mono ouside their personal preference?

edited 10th Sep '13 4:21:14 AM by joeyjojo

hashtagsarestupid
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1014: Sep 10th 2013 at 4:23:51 AM

You mean "I was born needing to be the only one loved, and needing to love only one, and I can't help it"?

Even then, I need to know why. Is it biochemical? Is it genetic? How does it work?

edited 10th Sep '13 4:31:38 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#1015: Sep 10th 2013 at 5:18:49 AM

You're asking a question even scientists haven't answered . . . they don't know where nature ends and nurture begins yet.

The only major difference between what makes a good Poly and what makes a good mono is the ability to focus one's romantic and sexual impulses on more than one person in a satisfactory way. And even that shifts.

A monogamous relationship will still, if it goes all the way+, entail balancing the needs and wants of two or more other people. It will still involve the energy to keep up with more than one other, and it will still require the kind of open communication that any and all relationships require.

  • By all the way I mean having kids.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1016: Sep 10th 2013 at 7:10:46 AM

Well, yes, obviously, that's why I said that the skills that make a good poly are also perfectly beneficial to a mono. Or to anyone, really.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#1017: Sep 10th 2013 at 8:06:10 AM

speaking as someone who's known a polyamorous woman since highschool, I dont see anything particularly strange about her. She loves two men, they love her, they have kids and go on family outings and generally love the everloving hell out of each other and their children. Why am I supposed to disapprove?

Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#1018: Sep 10th 2013 at 8:08:23 AM

There is nothing that forces or removes Polyamory. Either you prefer it and work with it to various degrees or you don't.

Its not that complicated.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#1019: Sep 10th 2013 at 9:05:51 AM

[up][up]Modern culture for historical reasons demands that you disapprove. It's not a good demand since the only things you can ethically disapprove of are harmful to the innocent. Beyond that, there's no reason to disapprove. Just take precautions, learn from mistakes, and pass that knowledge on in some form or another.

edited 10th Sep '13 9:54:31 AM by Journeyman

Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
#1020: Sep 10th 2013 at 9:14:26 AM

Mod Hat ON

Ok, since this thread's been necro'd we've clearly got people who weren't here for the first run. So let me state again what I said at the very beginning:


"This is a thread in OTC; that means it stays on-topic or it gets shut down. In this case the topic is "Polyamory — how does it actually work?". Not whether you find it hot, or don't think it can work, or whether you approve of the idea or not. This will be under fairly close scrutiny.

Attempts to derail it or turn it into a sex thread will be thumped, attempts to get it locked may result in a forum ban. "


Let me also add that attempts to make it a religion thread will also be thumped. This thread is not about the morality of polyamory. It's about how it works, what it takes to make it work, and if/how it differs from monogamy besides the obvious "well, there are more people involved..."

Mod Hat OFF

edited 10th Sep '13 9:16:20 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#1021: Sep 10th 2013 at 9:52:35 AM

I don't think it does differ from Monamory outside of number of people. As we've said, anything and everything that's important in Poly is just as important in Mono.

In fact, if modern culture didn't look down its nose at Polyamory, and if more people were engaged in it, there wouldn't be any more need for this thread than there's a need for a Monamory one, which as far as I'm aware doesn't exist separate from Nunnery and Romance over in the Off-Topic section.

The biggest things to get over are jealousy and lack of communication. If you can dampen down those two so that they're manageable, there is no reason beyond personal preference/amount of focus personally available that you can't be either mono or poly. Everything else can be tackled inside the relationship. In fact, other than enough emotional self awareness to know whether you're violent to your partners, everything else should be tackled inside the relationship. You'll have supportive hands there who can help you adjust and push through your problems and shortcomings, and you can do the same for them.

It's how you build a tight knit family.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1022: Sep 10th 2013 at 1:39:51 PM

@Madrugada Well, my goal here is to figure out if Poly is good—for me. Is that okay?

I think I've got the "integrity", "ethics", "being in touch with one's own feelings and being good at conveying them to third parties" parts pretty solidly down, and while I'm not the best at subtly picking up signals from the other or otherwise modelling other people, I'm learning fast. So, what other fronts should I secure before moving onwards? I don't know, but I'm researching intensely, and finding some very interesting things.

[up]The child-rearing part kind of worries me. According to Easton & Hardy, kids take to that kind of environment very naturally, but they're hardly a neutral (or rigorous) source.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Polarstern from United States Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#1023: Sep 10th 2013 at 1:44:36 PM

Handle, want an easy test? Are you attracted to more than one person? Do you want to commit to more than one person?

If the answer is yes then you need to have a conversation with the people you are interested in.

The only way you can know if you are good at a team sport is to find a team.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
#1024: Sep 10th 2013 at 1:49:07 PM

Mod Hat ON

Handle: You trying to figure out your personal answer to "Is it good for me?" is entirely within the purview of this thread. What I mean by "not about "is it good?" is that this isn't about "good" in a moral or ethical sense. OK?

Mod Hat OFF

edited 10th Sep '13 1:49:18 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#1025: Sep 10th 2013 at 1:49:36 PM

[up][up]Subtle signals are hit or miss. A lot of folks don't get them. Part of a good relationship is figuring your own signals and deciding which ones need to be figured out by your mate/s and which ones are better off being spelled out up front.

Although maybe they all need to be spelled out once the relationship is solid, and then left to be remembered by your partners later.


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