Wick cleanup: Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes

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I think it would be nice to still have somewhere listing what order they go in as they escalate.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:46:06 AM by shoboni

"It's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil, we have rage and compassion, we have love and hate...murder and forgiveness."
227 Ironeye3rd Nov 2012 11:21:28 PM from SoCal , Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Maybe, so long as there aren't any numbers. Having numbers, letters, or other sorts of shorthand designations will defeat the point of the entire exercise.
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
We could do it like this:

Type I(Trope)


edited 4th Nov '12 7:52:13 AM by shoboni

"It's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil, we have rage and compassion, we have love and hate...murder and forgiveness."
229 lu1274th Nov 2012 08:44:39 AM from 空蝉丸
But we don't want people to use the types at all. Type Labels Are Not Examples.
I meant just on sliding-scale page as reference so people know which type each trope used to be and which order they escalate towards Anti-Villain in. Or at least list the tropes on the page in order if we nix the numbers.

edited 4th Nov '12 2:17:16 PM by shoboni

"It's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil, we have rage and compassion, we have love and hate...murder and forgiveness."
231 Ironeye4th Nov 2012 10:59:25 PM from SoCal , Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
There is no "if" when it comes to removing the numbers—not just on this page, but on all of the Anti-Hero examples throughout the wiki. We're trying to make it impossible for people to just refer to each type by number, since that leads to awful examples. As for putting them in order...yeah, I think that's a given.
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Maybe we can put "formaly known as Type X" next to the trope names on the list with a note not to use the type names anymore?

Failing that, I'm okay with just having them in order though.

edited 5th Nov '12 8:39:00 AM by shoboni

"It's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil, we have rage and compassion, we have love and hate...murder and forgiveness."
233 SeptimusHeap2nd Dec 2012 08:49:27 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Do I see the situation correctly that the lack of examples here is the main thing holding this repair up?
234 SeptimusHeap10th Jan 2013 05:10:32 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Bumping this again, to ask a question: If The Unfettered says that it can apply to heroes too, can we scrap this YKTTW since it's obviously not going anywhere and use The Unfettered instead?
235 SeptimusHeap8th Feb 2013 06:18:15 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Repeating the previous question - we really ought to get this 2-year old thread done at some point. I am not disinclined to scrap the YKTTW, for myself.
236 Xtifr8th Feb 2013 10:19:38 AM , Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
I was about to say that the YKTTW looks pretty close to launchable, but then I took a closer look, and some of those examples seem a bit sketchy to me. So I'm inclined to agree with just using the existing trope.
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
237 lu1279th Feb 2013 07:29:02 AM from 空蝉丸
I'm not fond of the YKTTW either. I was talking with the other mods, and I had an idea: Move the scale to Just for Fun, faux-redlink the main article and also list the types on Anti-Hero. That would at least get rid of the annoying "[[SlidingScaleOfAntiHeroes Anti-Hero]]:Type III" nonsense.
238 SeptimusHeap9th Feb 2013 07:34:20 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
I would not be displeased at moving this page to Just for Fun.

We'll have to get rid of the "types" either way, though. During my wick cleanup runs I've seen them on most Anti-Hero examples.

I removed the examples, as the page is too large and the tropes are already split off. I have them preserved in case anyone wants to move them.

Another fix we could try would be perhaps to move all the sliding scale stuff to Analysis.Anti Hero and redirect the sliding scale there.
240 SeptimusHeap19th Feb 2013 06:10:37 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
I feel that this sliding scale and others are really about analysing tropes, so I agree on moving this page to that analysis. We'll have to clean the wicks afterwards, though. And with 1088 wicks that will require a collaborative effort.
Alright, here is a potential revision for analysis:

Although an "Anti-Hero" once referred to one specific kind of character archetype, over time the term has evolved to cover several, many very different but all having one key aspect in common: serving as contrast to traditional hero types such as the Knight in Shining Armor, The Ace, and the Ideal Hero. Ranking them along the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism lends itself well to a sliding scale of antiheroes, although the original definition exists somewhat outside of it.

Character Development may cause an anti-hero to shift up or down this scale. See the Sliding Scale of Antagonist Vileness for characters that would be the Anti-Hero, but they play the antagonist in the work. Compare with the Sliding Scale of Anti-Villains.

The morality of the scale, starting from the Disney Anti-Hero, goes from unambiguously good to evil, but the specific morality of any particular character is an issue of major mileage variance.

Classical Anti Hero: The original anti-hero, this exists somewhat outside of the scale and thus does not have a set morality, but still tends to be good at best or A Lighter Shade Of Gray neutral at worst. This was actually the original understanding of the term, a character who is a protagonist but lacks the qualities of the hero as seen by the Greeks (probably closest to the Tragic Hero). See Unfazed Everyman and This Loser Is You for related concepts. This type of hero may transform into a full hero over the course of the story if they manage to overcome their inner demons, discover their courage, find their reason to fight, etc. Whether or not this happens is heavily dependent on the story's placement in the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism; in an idealistic story, they are all but guaranteed to find true heroism by the end, whereas it is much less likely to happen in a more cynical setting.

Disney Anti Hero: This is what the term often means in common speech - a character who contrasts with a squeaky clean Knight in Shining Armor—perhaps a Knight in Sour Armor. These are more unambiguously morally good, and some would even laud examples as grumpier versions of Incorruptible Pure Pureness Pillars of Moral Character. The term "Disney" is used, because giving it some thought, this character is actually pretty much a hero, with Heroic Spirit, except that they don't have the positive mental attitude that comes with being a straight hero. Very frequent amongst the Mr. Vice Guy. Like the Classical Anti Hero, a Disney antihero stands a good chance of transforming into a straight hero over the course of the story once they confront their internal conflicts, find someone they want to protect, etc.

Pragmatic Anti-Hero: These are iffier, but no worse than neutral. Some stay in the "good" category throughout. This type is willing to Shoot the Dog or otherwise do what they must do. While some of these share the snarkiness associated with a Disney Anti-Hero, they are somewhat darker than the previous version, as their Anti-Hero status is associated with their willingness to do good through "not nice" actions. Essentially a meaner version of the Disney Anti-Hero. They may get nicer and turn into straight heroes over the course of the story, but they just as likely may not.

There is some division in this slot as to the acceptability of lethal force. Some will side against it, but others deem it a viable solution. In the latter case, it is generally a matter of last resort, but they will do what they have to do.

Vicious Anti-Hero: These are the darkest possible while having fundamentally good intentions, making them always neutral. This type of Anti-Hero will recurrently be extremely vicious. In some cases they might simply live in a very Crapsack World setting, and could have been a "Disney Anti-Hero" in a more idyllic setting. This character may have underwent something incredibly traumatic that made them beyond cynical. Their idea of justice towards someone who made their life a living hell may be serving revenge not as a side dish, but as the main course, because they feel that person fully deserves it; at the same time, these enemies will be unsympathetic to begin with, to the point where getting rid of them would still be doing the world a favor. There's also the Hero with an F in Good. There is some chance that they may see the error in their ways, get rid of the bloodthirst, and change into a straight hero over the course of the story, but don't hold your breath; a more likely scenario is that they'll remain an Anti-Hero and retain many of their flaws, but shift up the scale to a more unambiguously good type. These are the darkest possible anti heroes whilst having fundamentally good intentions.

Note that there is also a separate flavour of this category, which trades the heroic objectives for somewhat nicer methods, or at least more redeeming qualities. Their objectives tend to be neutral to leaning somewhat unsavoury (but never outright evil), balanced by having lines they will not cross, soft spots for their friends and loved ones etc., as well as often being on the good guys' side, even if only by chance or because it turns the greatest profit. Pay Evil unto Evil is a defining trope for this category. See also '90s Anti-Hero and Byronic Hero. Particularly cynical portrayals of the Lovable Rogue tend to be the latter variety.

"Hero" in Name Only: These are a Darker and Edgier neutral at best, and recurrently A Lighter Shade of Black aimed against greater evils. Far from Most Definitely Not a Villain, and range from being simply amoral characters who happen to be pointed at the villains for one reason or another, to being actively malevolent characters, only considered heroes because the villains they fight are much worse. These Anti-Heroes stand virtually no chance of becoming straight heroes; if they do, the very credibility of the story itself is actually threatened.

Sociopathic Heros and many protagonists from Lord Byron fit on this trope, as well as many '90s Anti-Hero characters, but the tendency was hardly limited to that era, either backwards or forwards. However, it should be noted that if the conflict is Evil Versus Evil or Black and Grey Morality, the antihero is the lesser of two evils.

'90s Anti-Hero, Noble Demon, Sociopathic Hero, and Byronic Hero, recurrently, but do not always, feature this type of character. When on a team, likely to be a Token Evil Teammate. When Played for Laughs, see Heroic Comedic Sociopath.

edited 20th Feb '13 6:28:18 AM by lu127

242 SeptimusHeap19th Feb 2013 11:42:00 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
I only wish that I could (re-)write descriptions like that.

The section names can be converted into plain links, though.
It still needs work—-I am not certain where The Unfettered fits in all this.
244 SeptimusHeap19th Feb 2013 12:28:26 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
I'll put some thought into it once I am done with Castle
A lot of the examples weren't properly transferred, namely the II and IV ones.
246 SeptimusHeap19th Feb 2013 11:25:53 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
'Cuz they do not fit the new split well, I think.
247 Ironeye20th Feb 2013 01:10:57 AM from SoCal , Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Hmmm, Character Alignment tends to attract stupidity, so we should probably avoid explicit mentions of it. Otherwise, it looks good. (We'll of course alter the references to the other sliding scales once we do them in.)
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
248 Willbyr20th Feb 2013 05:42:33 AM from North Little Rock, AR , Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
[up] Agreed; references to Character Alignment should stipulate that they're for settings where that trope is actually applied.
249 SeptimusHeap20th Feb 2013 05:47:23 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Weighing in in favour of ignoring Character Alignment. Moreover, it likely doesn't apply there.

I think I got them all?

Page Action: Pragmatic Hero
15th Apr '12 7:44:00 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
The Pragmatic Hero YKTTW is suffering from a problematic description. Here are some options to consider.

These options are not mutually exclusive.

Total posts: 283
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