Too General of a Name: Nosebleed

Isn't that just a variation of Blood from the Mouth?

Keanu Reeves' nosebleed in Johnny Mnemonic and Ashton Kutcher's in The Butterfly Effect are called called Psychic Nosebleeds on both that trope page and their work pages, even though neither one has any "psychic" cause (The two Johnny Mnemonic examples make this explicitly known, too).

Both causes would more accurately be described as something more akin to A Rush Of Information To The Head.

edited 24th Jan '11 11:39:52 AM by SeanMurrayI

Yep thats the trope pretty much.

^^ Yes, if you want to lump. But it's a sufficient variation to warrant being it's own trope, since it generally is different not only in the bleeding coming from the nose rather than the mouth, but the Nosebleed of Fatal Injury generally doesn't happen if the injury is visible. The mouthbleed goes along with visible wounds — usually chest or abdominal ones.

edited 24th Jan '11 11:45:40 AM by Madrugada

The nosebleed variant seems sorta different than blood from the mouth, if only because of the injuries involved. Blood from the mouth seems to be for obvious torso damage, whereas nosebleeds tend to be from head injuries or sonic attacks or attacks on the brain. That kind of thing.

edited 24th Jan '11 11:46:05 AM by Arha

"Psychic" means "mental", not necessarily magic powers. The description specifies "psyhcic as in magic", but, nosebleeds from a rush of information are perfectly good examples of Psychic Nosebleed.

edited 24th Jan '11 11:51:54 AM by ButterflyFairweather

Anyways, Psychic Nosebleed has been up for a long time, and there is no notable confusion between that and Nosebleed, so just launch the new trope as well, if it's really needed, and keep Nosebleed as it is.

^^The trope description explicitly mentions this as being something caused by one's psychic or telepathic powers and abilities being pushed beyond their limitations or one's brain being attacked via some psychic or telepathic ability. It has nothing to do with "just general mental strain."

Mental strain caused by one's head invaded by an overwhelming stream of information with an explicit technological cause (as in one of these example) and a clear temporal cause (as in the other) are both different from mental strain explicitly caused by overwhelming mental superpowers.

Tropes may be flexible, but a clear definition like, "When a character with Telepathy or other Psychic Powers pushes them to the limit, or when a character is under mental attack, nothing quite exemplifies the true state of affairs like a thin trickle of blood oozing from their nose," that doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room to be flexible with.

^What? All I'm saying is that there is room to move examples from that page to new tropes about crediting different causes for nosebleeds. Or it just Needs A Better Description. Your pick.

edited 24th Jan '11 12:22:27 PM by SeanMurrayI

Yes, the description specifically says "psychic as in magic", but Tropes Are Flexible.

^An explicit phrase such as "psychic as in magic" does not leave room for the kind of flexibility that would allow "technological and temporal causes of mental strain."

"Technological" and "magic," especially, are completely completely separate origins. There's no overlap.

edited 24th Jan '11 12:25:43 PM by SeanMurrayI

There is Tropes Are Flexible, and then there's ignore whatever the trope definitions says, I'll just shoehorn it in anyway. You're falling into the latter category.

I disagree. The Johnny Mnemonic and The Butterfly Effect examples are effectively magic. Certainly not different enough to warrant a separate trope, or be removed from the article example lists.

edited 24th Jan '11 12:31:25 PM by ButterflyFairweather

^Psychic Nosebleed isn't even a trope about "mental strain caused by magic."

It's about "mental strain caused by using psychic or telepathic superpowers." Johnny Mnemonic has nothing to do with magic. The Butterfly Effect doesn't exactly explain whether Evan's ability has a scientific cause or is just "magic," but but his nosebleeds aren't caused by a mental attack.

edited 24th Jan '11 12:36:08 PM by SeanMurrayI

They aren't effectively magic. They aren't treated as magic in media. They don't use magical tropes otherwise. They aren't magic. And they're inflicted by an outside force so they've failed the trope definition twice.

edited 24th Jan '11 12:34:41 PM by shimaspawn

Convinced.

I am not everything still seems to be covered by Blood from the Mouth or Psychic Nosebleed. a new trope could bridge the two but that doesn't seem to displace this very well entrenched trope anywhere to the need of a rename.

Blood from the Mouth has visible external injuries, and comes from the mouth specifically this doesn't. Psychic Nosebleed has nothing in common other than nosebleeds.

This thread isn't about Physic Nosebleed, just reminding you.

EDIT: Oh, and when you brought up Boss Fight, it shouldn't be renamed because video games are a way bigger genre than anime and manga, and Shipping because so many tropes depend on it.

edited 24th Jan '11 1:53:40 PM by chihuahua0

^I'm sure that Eternal September intended to be sarcastic.

I support the rename. A simple nosebleed counts People Sittin On Chairs. Horny Nosebleed is something that happens much more often in media and thus is a trope.

I'd personally prefer Nosebleed to be a disambiguation page, especially since it looks like we will have at least three distinct nosebleed tropes soon. But I don't feel terribly strongly about it.

YKTTW for Deadly Nosebleed, if anyone is interested. I'm not sure in the Johnny Mneumonic example is this or a fourth, new trope. Mental overload is usually survivable, but it is distinct from Psychic Nosebleed as it's currently written.

I think he knew that, and tried to reply why the same principle can't be applied here.

And to reply to that: Really? So if we wouldn't have other subpages, you would say that it would be reasonable to rename shipping, and tell pretty much every shipper on the site, that the term that they use all around the net, and outside it, is "changed", because this way we can more practically categorize it here?

No, being a pre-existing terms means having an inherent reason to keep a name. Because that's how people use it, and we only archive tropes, not create them.

And a term's popularity doesn't matter. If it would, we could as well rename the whole Anime medium to Japanimation, because it's small anyways, so no one cares how its own fans call it.

I still don't see why having the same word appear in three different tropes is areason for a rename.

Currently, thousands of Anime fans use Nosebleed as a term meaning a nosebleed scene with erotic implications. No one uses Horny Nosebleed to meen the same.

Turning Nosebleed into a disambiguation page would be a lot like turning Shipping into a disambiguation page between Relationshipping and Going Down with the Ship.

The latter also includes the word "Ship" so "there could be possible confusion". (even if in fact, there isn't any.)

edited 24th Jan '11 2:35:44 PM by EternalSeptember

And comic book fans just use the term Nosebleed to refer to Psychic Nosebleed so why does one fandom get dibs on it over the other?

Do they actually use that as a term?

Like "Tropeman had a nosebleed" automatically means the same thing as "Tropeman is using psychic superpowers" without further explanation?

I tried to google it, the first page's appropriate examples used it specifically as we call it, "Psychic Nosebleed", and the second page was already about how "Japanese comic books" (a.k.a. Manga) use nosebleed.

edited 24th Jan '11 2:44:08 PM by EternalSeptember

That analogy is... well, bad. Shipping is a supertrope of all the tropes with "Shipping" in the title.

This is more akin to when the article Meido was titled Maid (note that Maid is now a disambiguation page/index). It implied that the only or primary type of maid was the Japanese variety, ignoring articles like French Maid, Scullery Maid, and Ethnic Menial Labor. I'm sure the Anime fandom just calls it "Maid", but there is far more to the Internet than Anime fans.

edited 24th Jan '11 2:46:00 PM by ccoa