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TParadox Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: The captain of her heart
#7076: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:07:26 PM

It was probably the best on rights and representation though.

Fresh-eyed movie blog
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#7077: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:09:56 PM

Indeed. Most of the cast were aliens and the rest had a fair smattering of either men of various colors or women in general. And it still managed to be a good show in its own right without leaning on that as heavily as other diverse shows sometimes do.

TParadox Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: The captain of her heart
#7078: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:24:20 PM

And there was Dax's "gender, what a quaint concept" attitude.

Fresh-eyed movie blog
kkhohoho Deranged X-Mas Figure from The Insanity Pole Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Deranged X-Mas Figure
#7079: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:36:04 PM

DS 9 was a great show for a lot of reasons, diversity being one of them. It also deconstructed the Federation while also shitting on examining the Prime Directive, resulting in a much more believable Federation that's still worth fighting for. Throw in long term story arcs, Character Driven stories that aren't just driven by the characters but actually explore and develop them, and Ben Motherfucking Sisko, and you have what's IMHO the best Star Trek show of all time. Probably. Still haven't seen Voyager or Enterprise, but I don't think either show is really going to change my opinion any. Just call it a hunch.tongue

edited 1st Jun '17 6:37:18 PM by kkhohoho

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around
TParadox Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: The captain of her heart
#7080: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:45:25 PM

Right up there is Jadzia and Pel.

"I love him though."
"So do I."
"You really do, don't you?"
"Don't tell him I'm a woman!"
"You're a woman?"

Fresh-eyed movie blog
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#7081: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:47:43 PM

100% agree with that title. That was the best conversation in the series.

I'm glad I saw this one.

ETA:[up]Took a second to remember that one. That was definitely hilarious. Reminds me of an episode of Far Scape where D'jargo spends time with this little guy who we find out is actually the female of her species and she has a thing for him.

edited 1st Jun '17 6:49:28 PM by Journeyman

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#7082: Jun 1st 2017 at 7:01:21 PM

I've said it in other threads, but I'll say it in this one: Garak and Quark needed to have more scenes together. There was that scene, and the episode where Quark hires Garak to kill him. That's it. Those are the only times those two had scenes together. They're both moral dubious characters, I'd like to see how they get along with each other.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#7083: Jun 1st 2017 at 8:19:53 PM

There are a few characters I wish interacted more. Garak and Odo had that big two-parter episode together, but I felt there should've been a few more smaller scale interactions with them throughout the series, similar to Odo's obligatory mini-interactions with Quark. The two had such great, opposite philosophies. I still love that scene where Sisko makes Garak tantalize a sick and nearly-dead Odo with mysteries and lies to keep his mind occupied.

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#7084: Jun 2nd 2017 at 11:55:07 AM

A while back I asked my brother some stuff about Trek. Mostly who the bridge crew was, because he's never seen any Trek, but it's made it's way into the public consciousness, so it's not impossible he'd know the main characters. He knew most of the Original series crew and TNG, but when I asked him who the security chief on DS9 was he said, "It's forehead chin guy." It took me a while to figure out who he was talking about. Who do you think forehead chin guy is? It's Quark.

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#7085: Jun 2nd 2017 at 8:14:37 PM

Pfft. Security officer is Flat Face. Forehead Chin runs the bar. Everybody knows that. Second in command is nose-ridge and science officer is Spotty. The Engineer is Everyman and the doctor is . . . Bashir. Angry Simmering Black Man is the commander in charge. He's angry because he's not a full-on Captain like he ought to be.

strejda Since: Dec, 2012
#7086: Jun 5th 2017 at 1:48:15 PM

Whatever you want to say about DS 9, I will always love that it gave us a captain embracing an alien culture as his own.

I wonder how many people thought about it but to me, the biggest problem with Star Trek is that two of its big themes are that we can all come together as equals and despite our differences, become stronger for it-and that humans are the bestest specie ever, the moral paragons of the galaxy superior to everybody else-but are real nice about it. And yeah, I get it's because those aliens aren't real but one, they are crucial part of the setting and treating them as nothing but plot devices is just crappy storytelling and two, once you start using them as metaphors for other human cultures, you need to own up to it. Cause I do think this "oh sure, we are equals and we love our backwards, inferior friends :-)" does have applicability to real life.

Now, I really shouldn't make judgements before I finally get to watching all of Enteprise but from the start from what I have seen it was particularly bad with this at least at first. I get what they were probably going for with the Humans vs Vulcans conflict was that Both Sides Have a Point but I think it has this really nasty, one-sideness. Yeah, both T'Pol and Archer have racist attitudes they overcome but conveniently, it turns out Archer's assumptions about Vulcans are actually totally right, he's just wrong cause he thinks they are all bad, when there are plenty of Vulcans who are real nice-those who act like humans and T'Pol, cause she eventually tells her vulcan bosses to stick it. And it can't just be that they well-meaningly underestimated humanity, they are afraid of how fast we are developing because we are just so freaking awesome. Wank wank.

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#7087: Jun 5th 2017 at 7:06:49 PM

To be fair, if the shows treated aliens as superior or unequivocally having a point that we don't, they'd catch a lot more flak than they do. I mean, for crying out loud, it was only a few pages ago (if that) where we were discussing people attacking it for being inclusive because they didn't realize it always was supposed to be. If the Humans Are Special angle gets dropped I get the feeling that outcry is going to grow a bit as the borderline fans scream "Race Traitors!!!!"

I am not saying the shows' creators shouldn't do it. I'd be fine with them saying humans aren't all that we crack ourselves up to be. Just saying they KNOW they'd get further attacked for such a thing, and they don't want that.

kkhohoho Deranged X-Mas Figure from The Insanity Pole Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Deranged X-Mas Figure
#7088: Jun 5th 2017 at 7:25:06 PM

[up]On the bright side, we still had Deep Space Nine, which was practically built to denounce this notion.

GARAK: {Drinks a glass of rootbeer} It's vile!

QUARK: I know. It's so bubbly. And cloying. And happy.

GARAK: Just like the federation.

QUARK: But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to like it.

GARAK: It's insidious.

QUARK: Just like the Federation.

Did I mention I love that scene? Because I do.

edited 6th Jun '17 4:28:34 AM by kkhohoho

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#7089: Jun 6th 2017 at 4:26:28 AM

I do too. It's hilarious. Easily one of my favorite conversations.

But in the end, it still comes down to the Federation saving everyone's asses, and a Federation officer communing with the local gods to do it. And so we still get Humans Are Special.

ETA: They're effectively described as Manic Pixie Granola Girls with a point. In real life you just wanna knock them over to see what happens but after a while of them never letting people stay down, never being aggressive, and never letting others see them sad, you lose that urge and it actually hurts if anyone manages to break them.

edited 6th Jun '17 4:31:02 AM by Journeyman

kkhohoho Deranged X-Mas Figure from The Insanity Pole Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Deranged X-Mas Figure
#7090: Jun 6th 2017 at 4:33:41 AM

[up]Hm. I'm not too far into it just yet, but I did start reading New Frontier a couple of weeks ago, and even if it doesn't deconstruct the notion that humans are special, it at the very least doesn't promote it. Most of the crew (like DS 9,) are aliens, except unlike DS 9, the Captain is also an alien. This basically gives it a different perspective than most other Star Trek series out there, because for once, we're not seeing it from the view of those oh so special humans, (even though Mc Kenzie certainly looks like he is,) and while it's still too early to tell just what its' stance on everything is going to be, it did have Riker piss all over the Prime Directive, (seriously, I need to quote that at some point, it's so awesome,) so that's a plus in my book.

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#7091: Jun 6th 2017 at 4:38:05 AM

Sounds pretty badass. But until they put such thinking up on the screen, it doesn't count much. It's like with Star Wars. What most people experience is the stuff on the screen. Still, it's good to know they're willing to venture farther out in the books.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#7092: Jun 6th 2017 at 1:05:30 PM

My favourite exchange in DS9 about humans being bastards is one of Quark's rant in The Siege of AR-(forgot the number), where he basically says that once you have stripped them of their replicators and shiny starships, you get the standard bloodthirsty savages as in every other races. Applies so well to our nowadays humans.

Of course, at the same time, I also love Star Trek (especially TNG) because it is one of the few sci-fi works I know where humans are not bastards, precisely.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
kkhohoho Deranged X-Mas Figure from The Insanity Pole Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Deranged X-Mas Figure
#7093: Jun 6th 2017 at 9:09:42 PM

Ah. Here's the quote, courtesy of Peter David. Read 'em and weep:

RIKER: The Prime Directive, Admiral [Jellico], last time I checked, did not first appear on the wall of Starfleet Headquarters in flaming letters accompanied by a sepulchral voice intoning, Thou Shalt Not Butt In. It’s a guide for day-to-day interaction with developing races so that we don’t have umpty-ump Starfleet officers running around playing god by their own rules. But this is not day-to-day Admiral. And we’re not talking about playing god. We’re talking about showing compassion for fellow living beings. Tell me, Admiral, while you were sitting on Deep Space Five waiting for us to show up, did you actually walk around and interact with the refugees? Did you see the misery in their faces, the fear in their eyes? Did you help patch up the wounded, stand by the bedside of the dying, say a prayer for the dead? Or did you sit isolated in your quarters grumbling over the inconvenience? The Prime Directive was created by men and women, no better or worse than any of us, and I respectfully submit that if our hands are so completely tied by it that we sit around impotently, then we have to seriously reconsider what the hell it is we’re all about.”

Bad. Ass.

edited 6th Jun '17 9:10:45 PM by kkhohoho

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#7094: Jun 7th 2017 at 6:20:30 AM

It would be more interesting if we'd get a someone who is adamantly for the Prime Directive, no matter what he faces, since in his (and his possible crew's) experience not following it always led to catastrophic results.

edited 7th Jun '17 6:20:47 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#7095: Jun 7th 2017 at 10:46:45 AM

Trouble is, the Prime Directive as used on the show was too frequently used to artificially add drama and prevent the characters from doing straight-up the right thing without a heapful of angst. It was kept fuzzy enough so that the rule-sticker of the episode could say "The Prime Directive dictates that we don't do this very obvious thing" in the same way that we would get Klingons decide they should do something because honour, Vulcans because logic, or that technobabble prevented something.

Having a rule that prevents interference with less advanced societies is something rather natural for the Federation to have, but where it could have led to interesting ethical debates it was mostly used as a cheap plot device ("No you can't rescue those doomed villagers because PRIME DIRECTIVE!!!! Now watch us squirming uselessly for 40 minutes before someone remembers that we have transporters and holodecks").

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#7096: Jun 7th 2017 at 10:59:37 AM

Yeah, they tried pulling the "natural development of a species" thing way too often when it didn't apply. Like, a species in the middle of a nuclear war that was internally caused? Yes, I can see the Prime Directive applying there. Giant asteroid inbound which is going to hit so hard a big chunk of the planet's crust will be stripped off? Yeah it breaks down there.

When the Federation has the technology to deal with a naturally occurring problem that has nothing to do with the indigenous species, and the indigenous species doesn't, and the Federation refuses to do anything, it begins to stray into "Well you should have invented the necessary technology before the completely unpredictable Outside-Context Problem came up" territory. It comes off as a variation on "how dare you be poor, it's entirely your fault, quit mooching."

edited 7th Jun '17 11:03:04 AM by Zendervai

Not Three Laws compliant.
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#7097: Jun 7th 2017 at 12:09:01 PM

Draft number three, here we go. Poverty is artificial, an asteroid put on a collision course by physics rather than the actions of a ship, is not. Ergo, not quite a variation. That being said . . . the Prime Directive should never have prevented people from helping other cultures out. You could argue it from a superficial Natural Selection angle, but considering how big space is, the odds of actually finding the asteroid in time to help borders on natural selection favoring the people about to get hit. It brought a ship there to help in the first place. Where any sort of Prime Directive comes into play should be in affecting how the locals handle what's happened.

With an asteroid, that's easy. Stop the asteroid, don't visit the planet. Or do it covertly for study purposes. Do NOT tell the people what to think about this. Fix astral issues like a star about to nova or an asteroid. With plagues . . . iffy. If you get involved at all, study the people, don the usual prostheses, and fix the problem in a way that jives with their established culture. If they have a set-in method of adding new rules like scientific study does, go ahead and use it. If not . . . be an unseen angel and just drop the antidotes along with a letter explaining them and see where it goes. Make it available to every settlement and let them decide for themselves. Sure, it's interference, but it's interference they can refuse. They have a choice.

edited 7th Jun '17 12:09:58 PM by Journeyman

DeadlyAssassin Last of the Stellarians from Helsinki Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Last of the Stellarians
#7098: Jun 7th 2017 at 1:54:15 PM

Babylon 5 had once a great mockery of the Prime Directive and how twisted it ultimately gets:

Dr. Franklin: Just one second. If you saw a child from one of these "inferior" species bleeding to death and all you had to do was move a finger to save its life, you wouldn't do it?
Alien Delegate: We would neither help nor harm them. It's not our place to interfere.

Children of Dievas - my webcomic about the Northern Crusades
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#7099: Jun 7th 2017 at 2:00:24 PM

[up] To be honest, this kind of behaviour is not exclusive to the Star Trek Prime Directive (although the Take That! was probably aimed at it). I can at least think of the Time Lords and the Watchers who would answer exactly this (and then have one of their members say "screw you I will help the inferior species").

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
DeadlyAssassin Last of the Stellarians from Helsinki Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Last of the Stellarians
#7100: Jun 7th 2017 at 2:23:53 PM

It was definitely aimed at Trek since the Delegate as a whole is a not-so-subtle representation of the Federation.

Children of Dievas - my webcomic about the Northern Crusades

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