Star Trek

Watch a few episodes from there for yourself, then decide if you should skip them.

As a person who also got into Star Trek only a few months ago, I'd say the first two season of TNG aren't bad so much as just generally unremarkable. The series doesn't get into its consistently interesting stride for a while, but the earlier episodes are still enjoyable - they just don't feel as full or are written as well.

edited 23rd Feb '16 7:37:22 PM by KnownUnknown

My biggest thing about Next Gen is that every episode I want to see I've seen at least five times, so I'm starting to memorize them. The next thing is that it's supposed to be 400 years in the future, but it looks very, very 90s. The uniforms are great, but all the other design choices are starting to show their age as they pass 25 years old. Also sometimes the science.

The strength of the show is the chemistry of the cast. The writing is mostly strong, but the values preached and the values evidently internalized sometimes clash, and at this point it's not nearly as progressive as it thought it was. But that's true of pretty much all of Star Trek.

There's more arc in there than it looks like, but by now, it feels very self-contained and possibly stagnant.

But then a lot of this is coming from the fact that I've been going through Deep Space Nine, and now I find TNG stale, lacking in nuance, and overlit.

There are a lot of really good episodes in the first two seasons. The seasons overall are uncomfortable and awkward because they're figuring out what the show is, but that's true of every Trek series.

edited 23rd Feb '16 7:40:33 PM by TParadox

While TNG has some attention to characterization with a few of the characters, most obviously Data, in general it was focused more on the clashing of ideologies and large scale ethical dilemmas. The characters were generally archetypes, and what they represent was typically more important than who they are. If taken strictly as a character, for example, Picard is dull as dishwater. When used as a quintessential of how the Federation's values are supposed to be, he works in a way that's actually pretty rare (things like that rarely ever work - for example, overdoing this is a problem that every single Superman movie has - and my best guess for why it works with Picard is because he's part of an ensemble and episodes are very rarely about him).

If you're looking for an intimate character drama in space, it's simply not that kind of show. It's a straightforward adventure/exploration series, even moreso than its predecessor, which is arguably outdated anyway in the sense that pure adventure is practically a dead genre these days.

That's in direct contrast to DS 9, which very intimately follows its various characters' growth and outlooks through large scale problems rather than necessarily being about those problems in general. It also focuses primarily on issues within the Federation (and/or building on issues that already exist) rather than the Federation encountering issues, which is as far as I know the only time the series has ever done that - it's all about intrigue, culture shocks, dealing with the aftermath of conflict, ground Star Trek as a whole usually skips over. Because of that, I generally find TNG and DS 9 to be difficult to compare despite the fact that they take place in the same universe - they're incredibly different shows that focus on incredibly different things, and as such they're practically apples and oranges. It's external worldbuilding vs internal worldbuilding, as I like to put it.

I haven't seen Voyager yet, though. And I only vaguely remember what few OS episodes I've seen.

edited 23rd Feb '16 7:53:35 PM by KnownUnknown

Thanks. From the way NG's described, it actually sounds like my kind of thing, though DPS 9 sounds great too in it's own way. I guess I'll have to check both of these series out (and Voyager,) and see for myself.

DS9 is the grey sheep of the franchise. There are a lot of people who don't think it's proper Star Trek, and there are a lot of people who think it's the only thing Star Trek should be. It's a show Roddenberry would never have made, because it looks at his vision of a peaceful communist utopia and said "nah, that's not interesting or realistic."

Sisko delivers a manifesto in the second or third season about how maybe back at Starfleet Headquarters, on Earth, it's paradise, but there are still places in the galaxy where they haven't built that paradise yet.

It's a shame it's got a "love it or hate it" thing going with the fanbase. I actually think TNG and DS 9 are essential together, and that that era just doesn't feel complete with only one or the other. They fill in each other's blanks very well.

Voyager had its ups and downs, but when they were on point the show was fantastic. Deep Space Nine was more consistent, but succumbed to a lot of melodrama and weird tonal changes with their lighter episodes. Voyager generally played things with a bit of a wink to the audience, they were able to do both epic dramas and goofy comedies fairly well. The Deep Space Nine comedy episodes can be rather divisive.

Next Generation was ahead of its time in many ways, but like the Original Series was still a product of its era. The early 90's was when serial storytelling started to become popular, so there was an awareness of continuity but kept to isolated stories such as "Sins of the Father," "Reunion," "Redemption" and "Unification" all working together over the course of several seasons. In some ways that is better than current Half-Arc Season heavy television, as you come to anticipate when the twists in the current seasonal arc are coming rather than be surprised when a story arc takes a year or more to come back around.

Umm... DS 9 has Worf screaming "DEATH TO THE OPPOSITION" during a friendly baseball game. Funniest line in all of Star Trek. Ever.

My favorite comedy episodes were actually Voyager though. I recommend Voyager because of Robert Picardo's performance and watching Robert Beltran's growing contempt for the series as it drags on. The former is fantastic, and the latter is like watching someone's hope for a better future slowly and painfully die. It's got a macabre beauty of its own.

After the first couple of seasons, all they gave him to do was an occasional Chakotay story probably tied up in theme park Native American spiritualism, until he complained so much they gave him the baffling romance arc with Seven basically to plug his complain hole with Jeri Ryan's lips.

Beltran went grey like he was a two-term president during wartime. You can actually mark it in the episodes when he starts dyeing his hair. He even asked for this heinous contract hoping it would make them kill him off. They gave it to him and continued using him exclusively for koan-dropping in otherwise serious episodes. Or fucking vision quests. *.*

The issue was that Voyager lived in TNG's shadow. How to fix that? MAKE IT MORE LIKE TNG! At one point they even used "800" production numbers (if TNG had an 8th season those numbers would have been used).

"Highwater" was a classic con-man who lived to bilk hip New Agers. He was responsible for some of Chakotay's wacky character and the horrible Tattoo.

The Last-Minute Hookup? Ugh, that stink of the writers running out of ideas.

It's sad, when fans were burning Jeri Taylor in effigy, JMS stood up for her on USENET. Bragga wrote some good TNG. Ron Moore made Deep Space Nine shine. Rick Berman...is human (I think).

But trying to create TNG 2.0, they failed.

(Okay I think Berman is a mammal...or at least he can metabolize our atmosphere).

edited 24th Feb '16 9:17:51 PM by TairaMai

It occurred to me that for most Betazoids, absolute isolation from others, physical and telepathic, must be even more torturous than it is to humans. It seems like that must have come up, but all I can think of is the idea that Tam Elbrun's hypertelepathy making him seek as much solitude as he could get made him unusual.

So Voyager's biggest problem was that it was more of the same? Or was it that it wasn't able to do those things that were the same as well as TNG did? (Or both?)

edited 24th Feb '16 9:18:38 PM by kkhohoho

No it makes sense. A bog standard betazoid can "tune" out stray thoughts not only because of Mind over Manners, but they would be flooded with noise.

Tam...poor Tam...has not just Betazoid in his head...but all kinds of alien gibberish blasting in his BRAIN!!!! LIKE TOTALLY NO INDOOR VOICE.

It'd be like if someone had an app that turned on Russian, Mexican, Japanese and English radio stations all the way up on their mobile and they followed you around...holding it next to your ear.

edited 24th Feb '16 9:21:34 PM by TairaMai

Yeah, both.

They built this cool concept of being a crippled ship on heavy rations, having to survive without Federation resources, trying to keep their Federation values without the Federation as a mixed crew of clashing ideologies in an unfamiliar place.

Almost immediately they chickened out and just did planets/negative space wedgies of the week, eventually leaning too hard on the Borg, leading to Villain Decay.

The case for Tam seeking mental quiet was well-made in the episode. But it seems like most Betazoids would keenly miss the background murmur of nearby minds if it was taken away. At the very least, it seems like something that would deeply affect Lwaxana, who probably isn't to be taken as a typical Betazoid, but is the one we have the most opportunity to observe.

edited 24th Feb '16 9:29:58 PM by TParadox

That... actually sounds like it would have been awesome. Seriously, if they wanted more NG, then why didn't they just make more NG? Just because they were making movies didn't mean they had to stop making the TV show. Was the NG cast ready to be done with it? Did the writers feel that they did all they could with the show? What possible reason could there be to end it, because as far as I know, it still had the ratings equivilant of selling like hotcakes.

edited 24th Feb '16 9:31:50 PM by kkhohoho

The TNG cast were at one point contracted for eight seasons (I think it was in their fourth or fifth season renewals). At some point, Paramount decided the cast was getting too expensive for television and chose to end the show and trade season eight for three movies. (Nemesis was added on later because they decided they couldn't go out on Insurrection)

The problem was Franchise Zombie and cast fatigue. Remember we like seeing Capt. Picard & Co, to the cast it was work. Many wanted to do other things. Frakes is now a famous director, Burton is both a director and had many other projects. Actors like to have a variety of roles.

And the bloom was off the rose, season 7's theme was "We ran out of ideas". Let's hook of Picard and Beverly! .... oh wait, the shippers will kill us.... Long lost relatives ...oh wait that's too lame for even Fan Fic contests...

And a creative team so skittish that they could never let anyone challenge Janeway...when she wasn't Jeri Taylor's Mary Sue.

Season 7 does start to feel a bit drained, but I always saw its themes as "tying up loose ends" and "one last chance to explore these people's families".

In the continuing saga of campy Netflix summaries, I found the one for TNG as a whole. It's not as much fun, but still kind of campy.

"The year: 2364. The ship: The Enterpries. The universe: Theirs to boldly explore, once again. Engage."

Like, that's not in the class of camp as "The Federation said there'd be days like this," that's just your typical teaser trailer copy.

The "Year of Hell" two parter is generally pointed out as being what Voyager should have been for the entire series. The ship routinely trashed and patched back together. Compromises and hard decisions to stay alive. As a standalone episode it's not that great, mostly because it is obvious the reset button is coming from halfway through the first episode. But the visual of things like Voyager falling apart when going to warp is hard to beat. "Equinox" is similarly not a great episode, but works under the same themes.

edited 24th Feb '16 10:44:41 PM by KJMackley

I'm pretty glad there were some revisions made to this.

Why I'm still awake after 3 AM

Trek producers in The '80s and The '90s were so scared of anything gay they toned down The Outcast and only did Rejoined as a naked ratings grab.

Babylon Five went there, but was still limited by The '90s.

Now you can openly ship same sex characters in Sci-Fi/Fantasy and no one bats an eye.

Out of curiosity, how many people here actually watched the Animated Series? I'm a bit more than halfway through it right now, and while it's not bad, (ususally...) it can sometimes be downright insane. 'The Magics of Megas-Tu' comes to mind, but the series seems to pepper it to some degree throughout a number of its episodes, even more so than the TOS did. A lot of the episodes are also only kind of OK, which is better than being God-awful, but most of the episodes I've seen so far just aren't on the level of TOS. Which I guess is to be expected. Granted, it's still a miracle that the show turned out the way it did, but more often than not, the writing just isn't on the level of TOS, which is a shame.

I'll give it this much though. Being animation, it naturally can get away with far more imaginative alien designs than than TOS could, and it often has some darn fine imagery. (If not the animation to back it up.) On top of that, Uhara gets to be an actual character to some extent, having some actual shit to do beyond just sitting at the ship's equivilant of a phone all day, and she even takes command in one episode. (Which helps turn an admiditly ham-fisted attempt at taking advantage of the Women's Lib movement into something worth a watch for that alone.) And of course, Yesteryear is a classic, giving us a nice look at Spock's childhood while also serving as a culimination of his Character Arc. From the beginning of TOS to Yesteryear, he had slowly but surely gone from refusing to even suggest that he has emotions, to developing his own deadpan sense of humor while also no longer balking at the prospect of being said to have emotions, to finally admitting that all Vulcans have them, while at the same time still keeping them in check and retaining his Vulan identity. And to top it off, he even makes an outright joke at the end of the episode. If nothing else, TAS is worth checking out for that one ep alone.

edited 26th Feb '16 1:26:33 PM by kkhohoho

I've caught episodes here and there, but never the entire series.

It's on Netflix (US anyway), though, so maybe some day I'll do something about it.

You know, after I catch up on everything already left unfinished because an ADHD-style attention span.