Broken Title: Expy

Deadlock Clock: 14th Sep 2011 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [93]
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[up][up][up][up]Wow, that first option sounded completely reasonable. How did it lose?
27 MagBas4th Jun 2011 05:37:41 PM from In my house
Well, i noted examples of the trope where the only argument is the hair color and at least an example using "character X OR character Y"(No, not AND. OR). I guess Expy needs a clean-up -or, if this is not possible, an YMMV banner( Well, Recycled Script has this, at least). Opinions?

edited 4th Jun '11 5:39:51 PM by MagBas

I would prefer any cleanup, expanding, or keeping as it is, rather than to make it YMMV.

Creating Expies is one of the most fundamental ways of trope formation: A pattern of characterization tropes gets associated with a character, and an author copies that pattern to get the same response.

If we can't even objectively talk about when that happens, we completely fail at recognizing storytelling patterns.
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
[up]Agreeing with this. Turning things into YMMV effectively ends all discussion about the trope.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
I think the main thing we need to do is decisively lay out the definition of Expy, and how it relates to Captain Ersatz. I think we still might have some confusion and/or disagreement on those points.
31 chihuahua05th Jun 2011 06:51:44 AM from Standoff, USA , Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
Writer's Welcome Wagon
Personally, I see Expy as a character that is extremely inspired by another one, while Captain Ersatz is a blatant rip-off, usually in terms of superheroes or iconic characters. For example, Yuki from Haruhi Suzumiya is an Expy of Rei, while Metro-man from Mastermind is a Captain Ersatz of Superman.

Oh, from the Captain Ersatz page:

The character equivalent of a Bland-Name Product.

See also Counterpart Comparison and Expy, for characters who are similar to earlier characters, but aren't actually carbon copies.

And then Expy:

The key difference between this and Captain Ersatz is that an Expy is not clearly supposed to be the character, but is rather very similar, while Captain Ersatz is obviously the same character but with the Serial Numbers Filed Off.

edited 5th Jun '11 6:54:49 AM by chihuahua0

Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
Are we all in agreement that the identity of the Expy's creator is irrelevant, just part of a now-obsolete definition?
[up] I think so.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
I kinda want Expy to stay "similar to a character in the creator's/production teams' older work" and create a new trope for "characters similar to chacters in older works for different creator's." I think the distinction is needed because without it, you can say any character is similar to other character even if they weren't inspired by or even remotely similar. At least with the old definition of Expy there was a stricter criteria.
Dragon Writer
Perhaps the distinction needs to be that they are substantially similar?
[up][up] You mean, redefine Expy as "similar to a character in the creator's/production teams' older work", instead of keepin it as "characters similar to chacters in older works for different creator's.".

edited 5th Jun '11 12:34:43 PM by EternalSeptember

Oh yeah, that's what I meant. I think that was the old definition until Trope Decay set in.
38 Heatth5th Jun 2011 10:23:55 PM from Brasil , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
[up]Yeah, it was. And then, after long discussion it was decided to use the current definition instead. Mostly because people were using the Trope that way, and not in the former way.

With that in mind, why would want to revert the change? The previous problem have not ceased in the meanwhile, the opposite, actually, as people are now used to the current definition. Revert the decision would just break the name without any gain.
39 Ghilz5th Jun 2011 10:52:57 PM from The Moon, Or Canada , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Fight it Out!
Not counting, Expy (both name and definitions) are used in trope names like Fountain OF Expies)
Together Forever...
I would say that a lot of people are way too quick to slap the label "Expy" on a character.

I, for one, would not label Yuki as an Expy of Rei. Just to name a really common example.

41 Heatth6th Jun 2011 01:30:04 AM from Brasil , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
[up]In addiction to the somewhat similar design and personality, Nagato Yuki's name seems to be a reference to Ayanami Rei's. Both 'Ayanami' and 'Nagato' are Japanese WWII ships (destroyer and battleship, respectively). Meanwhile, 'Rei' can mean 'cold', while 'Yuki' may mean 'snow' (it actually mean 'having' 'hope', but the snow symbolism is present in-story).

I believe the inspiration is clear. But that is not a bad thing. They are very different characters aside these superficial similarities. It is not a demerit calling one character Expy from another.

edited 6th Jun '11 1:33:03 AM by Heatth

[up][up]That's pretty much my reason for reverting back to the old title, not that being an expy is a bad thing.
Together Forever...

Oh, I agree, I just think its used far too often for characters who's main connection is a few notable tropes, and I think an expy has to be a bit more than just that.

Dragon Writer
Yes. Character trope sharing does not an Expy make, any more than sharing plot/setting tropes makes a given work look like another with the Serial Numbers Filed Off.
45 TBeholder7th Jun 2011 04:24:45 AM from chthonic safety
Our future is a madhouse
For one, as everything frequently misused, it needs more on clear differences between this and close tropes, in the article, on both sides. Before someone would do the hard part and move the examples, so it would not be like carrying a sea in the sieve.

...And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense - R.W.Wood
I questioned Fighteer in the Ask The Tropers. Expy is similar to Shout-Out and Homage, in other words "It should only be blatant, or Word of God." and " you can't just argue for any random similarity between characters; it has to be obvious. "Dude, he wears green!" is not sufficient to be an Expy of the Green Lantern." This sounds a good starting basis.

edited 13th Jun '11 1:55:05 PM by MagBas

That sounds like a good way to prune the examples, if we aren't going to the original definition.

To elaborate on that, I think it's important that it's not really the similarities that need to be blatant, but the inspiration. There are many stories, for example Gender Flip, or IN SPACE! retellings, that keep characters as obvious references to the older ones, while they are different enough that if you would put them near each other, they wouldn't be that similar.

edited 16th Jun '11 2:08:33 AM by EternalSeptember

Total posts: 93
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