Why does this need examples?: Evil Is Cool

The trope writeup is fine as is, but the examples strongly come across as mostly, if not entirely, made up of Gushing About Villains You Like. It's hard to understand why this isn't a Subjective Trope - for one person, a villain could be the pure embodiment of Evil Is Cool, while for another person, that same villain could easily be an utterly reprehensible Complete Monster. In fact, any of the examples on the page that describe the villain as a Complete Monster make no sense anyway - C Ms are supposed to be devoid of any audience sympathy or admiration. Being considered "cool" seems like admiration in my book.

I don't see any reason for this to contain anything but in-universe examples, and it should probably be flagged as subjective while we're at it. Villains an individual troper considers cool belong on the Troper Tales page.

This should definitely be in-universe only examples.

Agreed. Bump all the "the audience thinks he's cool" to Troper Tales. Do parodies and stuff about other works count?

Also, fixed the link at the top. You don't put spaces in the word, you link it like a normal Pot Hole.

edited 10th Jan '11 8:30:55 AM by Deboss

Agreed — In-work examples on the main page, "I think this evil character is cool" to Troper Tales, unless they also describe the character as a Complete Monster, in which case we can safely guess that it's shoehorning of one or both tropes and dump it.

I take it that referential work counts as "in work" such as the page image?

"There is a reason actors fight for the chance to play the bad guy." And it's not because they're so cool in-universe. This trope is actually about being cool to the audience while also being evil.

Damn. You're right....

Right, but there can still be in-work examples. Characters talking about the Show Within a Show, or another work, or works that lampshade it.

So it's an audience reaction trope. I've seen it used in work. "C'mon you want to join the dark side, because the good side is lame." Although, to be honest, it's mostly a comedic variant when used in work.

Right, it is used in works. As I said the description is fine, but what makes a villain "cool" is just too subjective. The page as it stands seems like one long list of "This villain in this show I watch is SO COOL!"

It's an audience reaction trope, but one that's far less likely to have a consensus from the audience then most. So, as I said, I think we should just stick to in-universe examples ("I joined the dark side because it's cool") and leave the rest for Troper Tales.

Edit: Also, it seems like some of the examples are intended more as Take Thats at the good guys of a work then anything else.

edited 10th Jan '11 8:16:32 PM by nrjxll

There's also the fact that pretty much all villains are cool to at least an extent. It's not People Sit On Chairs, and it's not omnipresent, but I think it's so common that all we need to tell people is that yeah, it happens, and it's so common that even the below examples lampshade it. Something like that.

So, what to do with this?

Anyone for making a crowner on the subject?

Bump.

How can we keep this out of YMMV?

Frankly, we shouldn't. It's inherently subjective - how do you create an objective meaning for "cool"? The objective factors that can contribute to considering a villain cool are found at tropes like Evil Is Stylish (which may also be YMMV, but is much less subjective then this).

And I agree. Added it to the YMMV index.

Incidentally, I'm still unconvinced that this needs any examples besides ones where it specifically comes up in universe, as in:

"Lord McEvil's army may be evil, but they sure are cooler than La Résistance".

Whether it's on the YMMV index or not, it still shouldn't be simply abandoned to gushing.

edited 19th Feb '11 12:59:48 AM by nrjxll

Hate to self-bump, but... bump. I still don't see why it needs any examples besides in-universe ones.

Because the article would be pointless without examples?

Seriously, the main description is completely non-noteworthy without Darth Vader, the Joker or any of the other examples listed.

But it still seems like Gushing About Villains You Like.

...Then again, I'm an admitted Single-Issue Wonk about gushing, so...

Is it even possible to identify in-universe examples of this?

An Example Sectionectomy might be the only possible option (and only because I know that the current examples will go away anyway, no matter how much one protests about that).

Couldn't we talk about the trope in-universe and out-of-universe, but limit examples to the former? I'm sure I've seen that done before.

And there are definitely verifiable in-universe examples; often other characters react to or comment on the coolness of the bad guy.

Bump.

Also, regarding the existence of in-universe examples... See the Mahou Sensei Negima example listed, where a character responds to another character worrying about their group being percieved as bad-guys by saying that "bad guys are awesome/cool!"

edited 5th Aug '11 2:05:08 PM by MarqFJA

We should keep examples but there should be some standards. And they're already in the description.

"Their lines are great" so Large Ham, Deadpan Snarker etc.

"Their costumes are great" so Evil Is Stylish.

"The songs are spectacular" so cool villains have a Villain Song.

"Plus, there are all those wonderful toys!" cool villains have cool gadgets.

Keep examples that follow these standards and kick out the rest. That should avoid the worst of the gushing.

But why would we cover those examples on this page as well as the more specific subtropes?

I think he meant that the examples should hit most if not all of those points.