Yaoi Fans vs. Yuri Fans

I don't know either. A good chunk of the yaoi thread in IJAM is people saying they don't like it.

How ironic that the people in the Yuri thread seem to like gushing about it.

In regards to the seme/uke thing, the answer I've usually gotten is that, since the uke is often the Audience Surrogate, the writers typically try to make him more feminine in what I presume is an attempt to make it easier for a female audience to identify with him. Somebody who knows the history of yaoi better could probably explain it better (or correct me).

Personally, I've never been fond of the seme/uke thing. It's one of those things that just screams "HEY! WE'VE NEVER ACTUALLY MET GAY PEOPLE AND HAVE NO IDEA HOW HOMOSEXUAL COUPLES WORK!" whenever it pops up.

The idea that the uke is an audience surrogate is honest, one of the creepiest things I've ever heard. Filled with Unfortunate Implications.

It's basically saying "Hey, women want to be raped. But not really raped. What it is to say is that they have a Rape Fantasy. And that is to say, they wish to be dominated. And that is to say, they want to be put in their place."

That's much worse than the logic behind liking Yuri many guys make that "hey, if seeing one hot woman is awesome. Seeing two with each other must be twice as awesome!".

I don't even know where to start with this and how unempowering it is. But luckily I haven't seen this in action, only claims by people I suspect to be untrue. I know all of my female friends like the uke the best. Really, I think the whole idea is one of those gross oversimplifications to why someone might like it. Least of all do many Yaoi fans realize why they like it.

And I wish I was able to get near the ache out of my mind about this being brought up by saying just this. I have this lingering feeling of having something to defeat and that I haven't near completed my post.

That was sort of my impression about it. It's like the straight women that dug the show "Queer as Folk" or the straight guys that dug "the L-word." Do they know homosexual relationships seldom operate along those parameters? Do they care? In retrospect, I suppose most depictions of heterosexual relationships are often stereotyped, but they seem to have a FEW dimensions at least.

When I was fairly ignorant of the concept, I always assumed the Seme component merely defined the relationship "initiator." When I opened my apartment door one evening and saw one guy raping the hell out of another over a bedpost in a Mirage of Blaze OVA I learned how wrong I was.

edited 12th Jan '11 11:20:39 PM by UnabashedFornicator

Personally, I've never been fond of the seme/uke thing. It's one of those things that just screams "HEY! WE'VE NEVER ACTUALLY MET GAY PEOPLE AND HAVE NO IDEA HOW HOMOSEXUAL COUPLES WORK!" whenever it pops up.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. On principle I'd say I like bara better, but the fact that there's no "work-safe" equivalent to bara like shounen-ai is to yaoi makes it inaccessible to me 'cause I don't like reading about explicit sex in general.

I think it's partially because a) everyone is used to the constellations of het b) the dynamic is getting shojo manga sold (so no need to change that) c) Yaoi has become a lot more rigid since it's first evolved, so most writers just follow the conventions. Older yaoi manga like FromEroicaWithLove don't rely on uke/seme stereotypes. A newer work I really liked was "Constellations in My Palm" which portrayed the characters pretty good.

Of course, acknowledgingthat yaoi isn't any real representation of actual gay communities and relationships shouldn't be so hard, but a lot of girls/boys need to get the message I think. But that doesn't mean Yaoi can't be a genre for breaking up stereotypes and fears about gays. Nor should we ignore it's possible effect for changingthe Status Quo.

edited 13th Jan '11 11:24:53 AM by myrdschaem

Why is it such a big deal that yaoi couples don't act like real gay people? Het porn couples don't act like real straight people, either.

Yeah, but since most of the fans are not so familiar with it a lot don't realize that. I would like to think that this bit of information and knowing most of my prefered pairings aren't going to be canon anytime soon seperates me from the more... dedictated Yaoi fans.

Because some of us have the silly notion that when two men should, when romantically inclined towards eachother, still behave like men (or at least themselves) and one of said men should not feel inclined to turn into the female lead of a harlequinn romance.

The thing I dislike about Yaoi and Yuri in fandoms is how they sexualize things that aren't sexual, try to make relationships fit their prejudices, their molds. Relationships do not work that way.

I can see how parts of the fandom can be viewed like this. On the other hand I find people insisting/assuming that every non-flamboyant character is straight irrating. At least everybody showing no interest in anybody could be gay or bi. And some of the other characters can be bi.

Het shippers often do that too.

....I like the Seme/Uke dynamic, and I'm a bisexual/pansexual guy.......

Why is it such a big deal that yaoi couples don't act like real gay people? Het porn couples don't act like real straight people, either.

Because I want to read about other gay people in relationships — I don't want to read about overplayed, annoying archetypes with little to no grounding in reality.

Also, there are probably some people who adhere to the seme/uke dynamic like it's set in stone - but alot don't. Exceptions prove the rule, you know?

Alot don't what?

I never really saw any yaoi fans versus yuri fans, unless you count double standards.

I see more yaoi fans versus the anti-yaoi fans and the yaoi-means-porn-you-really-like-shonen-ai fans.

@Tsukubus: Not quite. Yuri originally started out in shoujo anthologies, and most likely the majority of the readership was not gay. It's become more diverse in demographics, but straight women still make up a large chunk of it.

More on topic, I do find it pretty stupid. But I'm not terribly surprised. You have, for example, guys who think Girl on Girl Is Hot, but also condemn actual homosexuality. They like it because it makes them randy, whereas two guys getting together doesn't, so the label it abhorrent. I imagine quite a few Yaoi and Yuri fans are actually against homosexuality. Hell, people on 2chan complained about Wife and Wife because they didn't want actual lesbians in their yuri.

There's also a pretty big difference in the way each genre is handled. From what I can tell, Yaoi tends to be more sexual in nature while Yuri is more romantic in nature. Furthermore, Yuri has a habit of only getting to the beggining of the relationship (a confession and maybe a kiss, then 'the end'), while Yaoi tends to go much deeper into it.

@Re: Uke/Seme: Yuri actually has a similar problem, though to a lesser degree. There's the whole Sempai/Kōhai relationship cliche, in which the cute kohai fawns over the Tall, Dark and Bishoujo sempai. There's also tachi/neko (essentially Butch Lesbian / Lipstick Lesbian, respectively) relationships, but that actually mirrors the real world to some degree.

^And technically shounen-ai implies gay shota love...

edited 17th Jan '11 4:41:13 PM by Miijhal

And one is blonde, the other brunette.

I'm always troubled when I see this in a fanfic: "I'm not gay, it's just you." Some of us are still in denial, I feel...

@Myrd: Lots of times they do that inorder to make Gayngst happen, or justify two characters that are canonly straight.

Story A needs to die in a fire along with the Seme/Uke dynamic. Or at least become less popular.

Story A? But I agree, a more un-formularic aproach would be nice...

@Mr AHR: I'm not so sure about that: It's not like you could not just declare the whole thing an AU where the two characters are bi/gay. Fanfics and especially Yaoi/Shipping modifys canon all the time and without an official pairing this sort of change is nothing. I could buy it if that attitude is resolved in the fic but they often end with the sentiment.

edited 19th Jan '11 1:26:25 PM by myrdschaem

Story A?

Story A: A term coined by Erica to describe the basic schoolgirl Yuri story plot in which a girl meets a girl, they realize they like each other, the end.

From Okazu Glossary of Terms

Generally, it's most common to short yuri magazine one-shots.

edited 19th Jan '11 1:31:06 PM by CBanana

Yes. Avoiding most yuri oneshots is typically something one can do safely without fear of missing something awesome. Because of it I read summaries and search for reviews of things before I read. Well that's partly why I read reviews. There's also that fact that some are very entertaining. Especially Friedman's.