Do Boys Really Have Trouble Relating To A Feminine Lead?

Darn. This topic has gone way off topic.

Anyway, I must have been lucky, because when I was a kid, boy/girl friendships and the ability to relate to a protagonist of the opposite sex were both accepted as normal and not seen as strange at all. The fact that I got along with girls better than boys was never used to insult me or seen as strange. I was made fun of and picked on for many things, but never that. Plus, there was said to be "dating" going on in the school when I was in third grade. Certain kids were said to be "going out" with another kid, which probably amounted to nothing more than a glorified version of "I'm friends with a member of the opposite sex".

So I never had any trouble relating to a female protagonist, be it the lead girl from My Teacher Is An Alien (whose author, Bruce Coville, even said the book sold more copies to boys than girls despite being first-person female), or whoever else. I also had read a couple other books with a girl main character, like Nothings Fair In Fifth Grade and Amanda the Cut-up. To be fair, most of these books kept the female-specific themes to a minimum, going for universal themes instead, so I could still relate to them.

Most of my heroes were male, but with some video games I'd opt for the female character. What I didn't like was "princessy" characters, who were too "girly" for me. For example, I didn't like the princess in Super Mario Bros 2.

I notice most people posting in this topic are male? Is that the case? What gender are most of you and what are your views on this issue?

edited 14th Jan '11 10:00:46 AM by BonsaiForest

I think it just comes down to familiarity. I know girls who enjoy male characters far better and have a similar (if slightly more lax) attitude that males would stereotypically have.

After all, when it comes down to it, males are always the main character as the default. Anything with a girl main character usually is marketed specifically towards girls.

^^ Have been reading this thread but not really participating because I wasn't sure I could bring anything to the table, not having any firsthand knowledge of the subject ( I'm female, no brothers, really good male friends only after some maturity had set in). I know I related perfectly fine to male leads, but that's not the question.

Also, as far as real girly-girls not being relatable... even as a female I don't relate well to those characters. :p Apart from a serious non-interest in most sports (especially traditionally male contact sports), I'm a pretty good example of a tomboy.

edited 14th Jan '11 8:20:55 AM by TheGirlWithPointyEars

Hmm, I don't ever recall having trouble relating to works with female leads, as long as they weren't directed intentionally at a female audience. Example: I don't care for Sex And The City, but I love the various Heralds Of Valdemar novels, Robert A Heinlein's Friday, Anne McCaffrey's Talents series, etc. My five year old son loves Stuff Blowing Up (Star Wars, etc.) as any five year old boy would, but also enjoys Dora The Explorer, iCarly (yes, at five even), and got a kick out of Tangled.

So it strikes me as odd to reject a work simply because it has a female lead. I'm more concerned about the overall quality than the genders of the protagonists. Personally, I often find male action leads to be far too shallow for believability, whereas creating an effective female action hero generally requires the writers to invest a bit more time on her actual personality. Tomb Raider comes to mind, even though that's not really a great example of "intelligent" film design. (Hi, I'm Angelina Jolie, and these are my breasts!)

Also, I see no problem with having female characters concerned with finding a man, because isn't nearly every male lead also concerned with hooking up with a girl? The Double Standard comes when the male Action Hero gets the girl to prove his manliness and have lots of sex, but the female heroine seeks love so she can hop directly into the kitchen and start changing diapers. Ironically, Friday fails that one somewhat.

edited 14th Jan '11 9:33:46 AM by Fighteer

It only annoys me when they make a female character try to be a lead model while at the same time making sure you understand the person is female. Similar to many of the works of Angelina Jolie for instance, are frustrating because, when I would have simply accepted any sort of character with her and liked it, not caring that it's female, I am shoved in the face with "I AM FEMALE!"

I like to write novels and my issue about creating female protagonists is my personal fear that since I am not female, the character is not believably acting in any way that is female (I usually just roll dice to see what gender a character is unless it is somehow important... like the character is a love interest of another and that character is/isn't gay). I don't really write anything to be a role model so I suppose then that I don't really care if you think you should follow a character's character.

I have a protagonist in one story that is royalty but she is a strong military-type (focus on honour), with a girly blonde female fiance. Is that believable? I have no idea. Is she a role model? I don't know, I didn't write her as one. I just don't really like novels that try hard in that manner because it detracts from making a good novel. Those properties should arise as an emergent aspect of good writing.

Mmm, I think any character can be believable or not... depending on what the setting is, what they've been through, and how carefully you understand how that character came to be how they are. It's when you have a character whose personality or actions don't fit what else we know of them that it becomes an issue. That's characterization. Bad or insufficient characterization will inevitably lead to a boring or unrealistic character. And if you don't think the character through and just use archetypes, you won't get sufficient characterization.

edited 14th Jan '11 10:43:23 AM by TheGirlWithPointyEars

Question to the girls here: how did you relate to Kamina and his rethoric riddled with Testosterone Poisoning? Was this an obstacle, or did you somehow manage to identify with such phrases as "A Real Man Never Dies, Even When He's Killed"? How do you relate to other male characters who shove their masculinity unto you, such as Kenshiro, Barney Stintson, or anything played by the dudes in The Expendables.

Haven't watched any of that media.

I can relate to ChivalrousPerverts like Al Calavicci or even less chivalrous ones like Al Bundy, though, and manly badasses like John McClane, though, but the ones I just cited had pretty good characterization, I think.

edited 14th Jan '11 10:59:20 AM by TheGirlWithPointyEars

Relating to hypermasculinity (or at least accepting it as a character trait or acclimating to it as a culture) has never been a problem for me.

When watching TTGL I know I was always yelling back at the screen. "DAMN RIGHT A MAN NEVER DIES EVEN WHEN HE'S KILLED." "PIERCE THE HEAVENS!" pumping my fist and so forth. Similarly I was far too amused and engrossed in the manly man military culture while reading Generation Kill. It's harder to wrap my head around a guy who's highest priority is getting laid, but give me enough time and I'll be sympathetic to his plight.

Same for super-testosteronefest video games.

...I'm the violent sort though, and get a lot of flack for not being all that womanly so not the best person to give an opinion on this...

edited 14th Jan '11 11:03:03 AM by Bur

Yes, but do you identify with those values, do you think those "man" values apply to you? When one identifies with a character, one somwhat becomes said character: do you sometimes feel as if you've become the Man character, metaphorically speaking?

Oddly, yes. I feel more tough and manly after partaking of more manly entertainment. All gung-ho and ready to take on the world. And beat it up.

It's really not that hard to identify with an exagerratedly male character. I too want to rescue the buxom wench, smoke a cigar, and slow-walk away from explosions. Re: being an stubborn unstoppable force of sheer will and illogic.

I don't really think of being tough, banging hot chicks, fight hard drink hard and love hard, affection for your buddies through violence, PIERCING THE HEAVENS etc as "Man Values" though. Just a hardcore frenetic kind of fun.

edited 14th Jan '11 11:14:02 AM by Bur

Not sure about the female perspective, but from a male perspective I enjoy getting into the heads of female characters and empathizing with them. With male protagonists, especially action heroes, there's an element of Wish-Fulfillment, but with females I get a very interesting point of view that I might not otherwise. I also enjoy reading sex scenes from the opposing point of view, so there's that I guess.

Rescuing a buxom wench, smoking a cigar, and slow walking away from an explosion is total wish fullfillment.

If I want an interesting change of perspective from a male point of view I'll replay Silent Hill 2.

edited 14th Jan '11 11:18:12 AM by Bur

One of the main reasons I love Black Lagoon is that it's got female characters who do those things.

I think this discussion could be crossposted to the literature and film sections, where it might also get some interesting responses.

Anyway, for me, reading about a female character and seeing her perspective can give me an interesting take on how someone else sees things, since there are sometimes some pretty big differences between the genders. Even as a kid I felt that way, and it was neat seeing some of these elements of the "other side". Like in Amanda the Cut-up, a book about a class clown who just happens to be a girl, part of the plot involves her best friend getting angry at her for breaking a necklace or something, and a party is described in detail. As these were only aspects of her life instead of major themes, I not only didn't mind, but found the glimpse into a very different way of life and mindset interesting.

It's when the stories have major female themes in the story itself that I couldn't relate, and wouldn't be interested in reading. But as aspects of the character, it was cool to see and learn about someone else's way of life, provided the main story themes are universal and easily understandable to me.

Well, yeah, you never see major male themes like you would see major female themes. To be honest, a story that emphasizes being a man annoys me just as much as being a woman.

While I don't have anything new to add outside of my own perspective, I have to say that I find this whole attitude weird. Boys can only relate to males, girls can only relate to females. I have never, ever felt like this when consuming a story. The lead is simply the lead, be they female or male. If they are interesting characters, then they are good leads, if they are uninteresting characters then they aren't. That is not to say that gender doesn't change anything or is entirely superficial to the character, of course not, but it makes no difference when it comes to empathising with them. I, as a human being, can identify and empathise with other human beings. Saying that I can't identify with a female, because I am not female, would be like saying that I can't identify with a non-white protagonist because I'm white. Or saying that I can't empathise with someone who has an entirely different personality than me. That's one of the beauties of fiction; you get to identify and empathise with people who are different from you, if every character were like me, it would frankly be pretty boring. Why the one difference of gender should mean so much more than other differences I really don't get.

In all fairness, this is not an attitude I have seen expressed much in real life(though I'm quite certain a lot of people practice it to some extent). Except maybe the whole "girls need role models" thing, anyways.

edited 14th Jan '11 11:52:48 AM by Mathias

Actually, that's not entirely accurate. Females tend to relate to males much more easily, due to male being the default gender for protags. The "girls need rolemodels" thing is a reaction to the complete lack of female characters, Ithink.

edited 14th Jan '11 11:51:45 AM by MrAHR

Given there's been some studies showing that women are actually more aggressive than men (but socially pressured to pretend they aren't) I'm not too surprised that women wouldn't have too hard a time relating to the likes of Kamina.

I'm saying that there is absolutely no reason why males shouldn't be able to relate as well to females, as females do to males. IE, the female state of being able to relate to male characters is the "normal" one. The supposed male state of not being able to relate to female characters is the one that isn't normal. That is not to say that it isn't a problem if there is a huge overweight of male protagonists compared to female ones (if for no other reason then for the fact that I like variety and enjoy female leads) and that this can't create some gender problems. However there is nothing wrong with girls identifying with male protagonists at all, in fact it's good that they can.

Also, generally speaking, if one cares to read books, it's a lot easier to find female protagonists.

Can I see said studies, or references to the studies? They sound interesting.

One of the points raised earlier in this discussion was the idea that boys refuse to read books/watch movies etc. with a female lead. Not so much that they wouldn't be able to relate if they did see such a work, but that they won't even try.

One of my coworkers has two sons, aged 6 and 8, who flock to me when she brings them in, due to my love of video games and large number of handheld systems (Nintendo D Si, Play Station Portable, iPod) and the emulator games I have on a flash drive. When playing games such as Metal Slug or Dungeons And Dragons Shadow Over Mystara, some of the female characters (Fio in Metal Slug, the elf in D&D) are my favorites. The younger brother refuses to play as female characters, though says he has a female friend. The older brother, from what my coworker tells me likes some "girly things", such as Hannah Montana, but doesn't let other kids in his class know. He also appears not to have the hangups about playing as a girl that his younger brother does. (In Metal Slug 3, when the two playable characters got captured and had to be rescued by the remaining two, the younger kid wasn't happy about not being able to play as a male anymore)

I wonder if there's some social pressure there, as well as the desire to be different from his older brother? His older brother likes "girly" stuff, so the younger brother rejects it? What do you think?

Also, my coworker has mentioned on several occasions how her older son is the kinder, gentler of the two - and he's the one who likes Hannah Montana, so there may be a push to get away from the "girly" older brother and establish his own "manly" identity.

Well, you could probably rope it in with the fear of being gay, camp and all that other good stuff.

In other words, it comes from one source, a put-down of femininity, I guess.

I have to say, the gender of a character does not factor into me liking them at all. I literally do not notice their gender at all, except then they're first introduced and when something happens based on their gender. Other times, I just don't really care about it all. I'm interested in their personality, dammit.

Interestingly, many girls dislike the girl characters as well, usually idolizing the male character. So not even females like the female characters a certain part of the time.