Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Wesley is an interesting character in that he initially thought himself to be the Hero of Another Story, only to realize he really isn't. THEN he thought he would take on the role of Bad Guys Do the Dirty Work, only to fail at doing that too.

He was nonetheless well intentioned in the middle of S3, even though he became the bad guy. His problem there was that he didn't bring up the matter with the rest of the group, but the presumable justification (they'd basically tell him to fuck off) wasn't without basis, if even if they'd have been ultimately right.

Granted, he takes a Never My Fault attitude when blaming the rest of the group for his own ostracision, but he achieves what no one else can or does by finding Angel, and going out of his way to help him, even when there's no ostensible personal gain to be had from doing it. If anything it hinders him, since he's been profiting from Angel's absence by stealing all his clients.

Though both helping Angel and stealing his business are both responses to the guilt and pain he feels - the former to resolve the issue which led to it in the first place, the latter to protect himself by shutting himself off emotionally.

Basically, Wesley is a complicated character, but ultimately a really interesting one because of it, and I don't feel he's perhaps respected as much as he could be.

I had a thought about her gaining confidence throughout the seasons. I wonder if all the confidence she gained was false confidence when she practiced magic?

It's been half a year since this conversation ended so I'm having trouble with The Pronoun Game. I assume you're talking about Willow?

It's pretty strongly indicted that Willow's upswell in confidence is connected to her practicing magic. A key part of her addiction is that she likes how powerful the magic makes her. She feels like a stronger, better person when she can solve things with magic, so she keeps trying to solve things with magic. While season six had a few missteps regarding Willow's addiction to the feeling of being powerful, it had been a long-running subplot for a while.

Off the top of my head, season 4's Dream Episode finale makes a big fuss over it in Willow's nightmare; sticking her back in the identity of S1-2 Willow and having other characters hiss over how everyone's going to find out the truth of who she really is; that she's not this powerful badass awesome Witch but is instead the shy and scared nerd she's always been. By this point in the story, Willow is actively rejecting her own identity and starting to take too much comfort in her ideal persona of Willow the Super-Witch.

Willow is her own Escapist Fantasy.

edited 13th Apr '16 8:07:09 AM by TobiasDrake

I'm up to Season 5. I've been watching this show sporadically and...

Where did Dawn come from? I've already got an inkling that she's really important, related to that weird coma dream Buffy had with Faith - but how were those things connected?

That crazy old man mumbled something to her. I'm getting the impression this is a Call-Back to "Superstar". Did Dawn appear earlier in the show?

edited 12th May '16 8:58:24 PM by Soble

Well, you will have to find out on your own however if you want to be spoiled Dawn is essentially an inter dimensional in human form.

You're supposed to be confused by Dawn suddenly appearing.

Just finished "Real Me". o_o F'cking ominous.

Even more ominous.

(2) Tempted.

I really want to know what dream sequence with Faith was about...

edited 12th May '16 9:19:32 PM by Soble

Missed out a word there, the full explanation is (spoilers of course!) inter-dimensional key. Energy given human form, but not itself human. Metaphor for adoption, essentially

The dream sequence is deliberately cryptic and also has a fair bit of foreshadowing. I can't recall the detail at present but when I get home from work I can translate it (I'll put it in spoiler tags of course in case you'd rather not know). There is some season 5 stuff in there though, even though that dream happened at the end of S3.

edited 13th May '16 3:02:47 AM by EruditeEsotericist

There's two dream sequences that tie into it. This bit from season 3 with Faith and Buffy making the bed in the same bedroom that Dawn's first scene is in:

• Buffy: I wish I could stay, but—
• Faith: You have to go.
• Buffy: It's just with—
• Faith: Little sis coming. I know. So much to do before she gets here.

And then this bit from the season 4 finale, Restless, which also takes place in that room:

• Tara: You think you know...what's to come...what you are. You haven't even begun.
• Buffy: I think I need to go find the others.
• Tara: Be back before Dawn.

edited 13th May '16 10:34:58 AM by TobiasDrake

There's also another dream sequence (or the same dream sequence perhaps) where Faith says, "Little Miss Muffet, counting down 7-3-0." In Season 5, Dawn is referred to by one of Glory's crazies as "Little Miss Muffet" and 730 days was exactly the amount of time before Buffy died.

I loved all the foreshadowing the show did.

The first sentence in is from the same scene as the first in , the end of series 3. Restless as an episode has a ridiculous amount of symbolism in it, some of it commentary on what has already happened or what the characters are feeling, others of it foreshadowing of what's to come.

7-3-0 also comes up on a clock in both dream sequences. The clock in the room that Buffy and Faith prepared for Dawn is frozen at 7:30.

I got some of that.

• Willow and Tara's relationship.
• Xander's inadequacy with being the Butt-Monkey.

The whole thing was actually the First Slayer trying to contact Buffy...? Though I don't remember why she had to go through all of that and involve Buffy's friends.

That seems like a long time to foreshadow something.

The First Slayer was only part of the dreams. The rest was insight into the characters' identities mixed in with some dream wackiness. Like Cheese Guy. Cheese Guy was a very important metaphor full of hidden meaning and subtext. Taking all of his appearances together, it roughly translates to, "Dreams are f*cking weird and sometimes shit just happens in them."

But Willow masking her insecurities by playing roles, Xander's fear of becoming his parents, etc. That's all meaningful characterization.

edited 13th May '16 1:45:54 PM by TobiasDrake

Yeah Joss Whedon said that Cheese Guy was deliberately just a random weird guy in an episode filled wth genuine symbolism - the almighty troll thought it would be funny to watch people try and see something that wasn't there in him.

You've got so much little detail in that episode - like Harmony proving herself an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain in her pathetic attack on Giles. Some of it though is really insightful, like Spike and his "Giles is training me to be a watcher" thing. He's not really a full part of the group by the end of series 4, but he has the potential to actually turn his un-life around for real.

"Restless" is one of my favorite episodes. It's just so lyrical, like actual dreams. "I'm going to be a fireman when the floods roll back. And I don't sleep on a bed of bones."

And Giles singing:

It is said that comparing Spike to Mayor Wilkins is a great way in knowing the difference between Faux Affably Evil and Affably Evil. Can anyone tell the difference between those two in that regard?

I suppose the difference is that Spike is capable of being personable, but tends not to be when he doesn't have to be, whereas Wilkins is a friendly guy as a basic trait of his personality.

Faux Affably Evil is when the character is putting on a show of being charming while they hide their serious, murderous side. Affably Evil is when the character literally is that charming and maintains that persona throughout. Spike is shown to be largely playing the role of a badass vampire, underneath he is really a sensitive, nebbish poet. Mayor Wilkins is always rather silly and goofy, his last words are "Well gosh." The exception is when Faith is injured, but that is triggering a Berserk Button rather than him dropping the act.

... wait, Spike is Faux Affably Evil? How so? He starts out as Card Carrying Evil and then evolves into an Anti-Hero and Jerk with a Heart of Gold. I don't think at any points he's any sort of Affably Evil, faux or not.If anything he's the exact opposite, playing himself as being more evil than he actually is.

edited 23rd May '16 11:24:31 AM by Larkmarn

Did anyone else like Adam? While I do think the Initiative arc was mostly not done well, I did like Adam. He was different from previous main antagonists as a man made threat. One thing I found fascinating is that he's just as arrogant as other big bads but in a way that's rather casual. And there is something somewhat tragic about how he's only how he is because of Walsh's need to play god.

I liked him in theory. Dark Messiah, human-made demon, gradually discovering the world? Honestly interesting on paper.

Literally everything about him (other than his introduction with the kid he murders)? Total mess.

Adam has an intimidating design and the final fight against him is incredible, but he's kind of boring.

From what I understand, he was a last minute addition to the plot after Maggie Walsh's actress got a schedule conflict that prevented Walsh from being the Big Bad of the entire season.