Long Live the King
It was Spike loving Buffy that's the baffling part. Comes out of nowhere wit no build-up. And totally fucks with the way souls workSpike's feelings come out of nowhere, yes, but they appear in season four(but not spelled out until early season 5). And then they go two seasons building that up... And the "fucking with the way souls work" reasoning is iffy to me... It contradicts the first season, yes, but half the expounding on the Angelus/Darla/Spike/Drusilla relationship contradicts that... While it's clear that Angelus never truly cared, in any way, about anything but himself... It's also clear that Spike, Drusilla, Darla, and a number of other vampires we meet over the course of Buffy and Angel do have a wide range of emotions. They may not care about their actions in regards to achieving their own pleasure/happiness or anything like that, but they do feel... And since it has been shown that Spike truly does love Drusilla... That, in itself, shows that even without a soul, vampires are capable of having such an emotion... It's just that the soul makes the whole "redemption" thing possible because it's evidence that the vampire has the possibility of feeling remorse for their actions. If one isn't ever truly remorseful about something, how can they be redeemed?
edited 25th Jun '12 12:32:22 PM by Swish
I adore the themes of Angel way more then Buffy. It just felt so much more mature to me. Once More With Feeling was an awesome episode though. Plus some others that I can't quite think of at the moment.
edited 25th Jun '12 2:35:57 PM by disruptorfe404
Angel had chemistry with every person on that show besides Buffy. No mean feat! Though once they separated, he seemed to be written more like a real guy than Marti's "You Are Worth Hell" Spike.
Ahr riverI liked Angel, but dear god, fuck the 4th season.
I found the fourth season to be an almost-perfect way to end the series (no, I don't read the comics... mostly because I think the series ended so well).
Ahr river...it ended at Season 5.
Oh did it? I'm mixed up then... EDIT: Wait! Is the fourth season the one with Connor? Because if yes, then yeah, fuck that season. The only things I really liked about that season were Faith breaking out of prison and Willow interacting with Fred. And that was like... two episodes or something. Seriously though, if that is the fourth season, then I feel justified in being mixed up.
edited 25th Jun '12 4:42:41 PM by disruptorfe404
Ahr riverthe 4th season: Angel gets fished out of ocean, pregnant/evil Cordelia, Jasmine, and everything in between with that
Yup, it's the one I'm thinking of. Bleh.
Ahr riverYes. Bleh. Season 5 on the other hand, was amazingly wonderful, although I had mixed feelings on Fred as a character.
Going back to a reaction to my previous comment, I was referring to specifically Buffy and Angel falling in love being rather bland. The Angelus Arc is generally considered when the show Grew the Beard and really showed their writing chops. I felt Angel overall was a superior show because it largely focused on telling intricate and complex character stories rather than focusing on the Seasonal Myth Arc, both Lindsay and Lila were surprisingly well developed characters despite being antagonists. I also liked how they spent so much effort to make each character worthwhile (in Buffy, Xander and Anya had very little to contribute, and that is why Seth Green left cause Oz had nothing to do after the second season). The one thing in Angel I felt was very cliched was the Angel/Cordelia romance, but the chemistry between David Boreanaz and Charisma Carpenter was so phenomenal it redeemed the concept.
Angel S4 was terrible, but the five episode arc at the end is some really nice work.
At least I didn't make any new friendships.I feel that Angel was more consistent, but never quite as good as Buffy at its best. Though I'm apparently one of the few people who dislikes Angel season one and doesn't really care for season five.
Long Live the KingOkay, I've been thinking about it for a long while, and it's been bothering me... Does it seem, to anyone else, as though no one in the Scooby Gang even thought about Faith during Buffy's 3-month-long case of the deads? I mean, I can come up with every one of the logical reasons for each of the Scoobies to say no to such a thing... But, I dunno... It just seemed, to me, like the possibility of getting her out of jail to resume Slayer duties wasn't even addressed during that time.
edited 27th Jun '12 9:07:07 PM by Swish
Whoever said they didn't think of it? Presumably they thought of it offscreen and decided she was too unstable.
if everyone owned a horse, the country would bea lot more stabilized
Long Live the KingSee, my reasoning for why they didn't think about her(in any way) is the overall status of Faith ceasing to exist in the minds of the Scoobies, except for when she's around(although, I suppose you could make the same case with regards to anyone still alive they've ever associated with, other than Angel). I know why every one of them would have rejected the idea(although Giles might think it was okay)... But, again, I don't think it even occurred to them...
The only person who had any sort of trust in her was Angel, it took another couple of years for Faith to really redeem herself via helping to stop Angelus and get Angel's soul back. Even then she had few friends in the Scooby gang.
Trope on a RopeWho needs Faith when you have a wacky Buffybot? Probably any consideration to utilize Faith was over the moment Willow, Xander, Anya, and Tara decided to bring back Buffy. Dawn had no real experience with Lehane, and Spike encountered her once (and would likely bristle at anyone replacing Buffy). Giles may have had it in the back of his mind and for all we know he partially went back to England specifically to talk to the council about getting a new protector at the Hellmouth. But yeah, Faith potentially going rogue again with no Buffy to stop her probably turned them all off of trying her out.
edited 30th Jun '12 5:37:00 PM by BorneAgain
Still waiting for a Legion of Losers movie...
House Lewis: Sanity is RelativeBeen watching Angel again, all of it, start to finish. Series 1 is too Monster of the Week for my tastes, which surprises me because they were past that on Buffy by that stage. It ends far stronger than it begins though, and any appearance of Holland Manners means the episode is good. He's just great, probably because he's so casual, and manages to be more menacing because of his understated manner (pun not intended) and lack of screen time. Less is more with a character like that. I also adore Lindsay, he got some good moments later on in the series. Series 2 and 3 are easily the best for me. The final arc of S2 was a bit too lighthearted for the series I think, but still had good moments and just about worked. Lorne works better as a Greek chorus than as a focal character, and got too much screentime in those episodes. Loved the Darla storyline though, and pretty much any appearance of Lilah, as with Holland, makes the episode interesting. Series 3 has one of my favourite villains in all of fiction, Holtz. A wonderful character who manages to be a villain despite being a hunter of evil, though his excommunication from the church is proof that his methods are known and considered too extreme. A brilliant touch was that at the end he actually managed to turn his hate for Angel into love for Connor, so while it didn't stop him completing what he'd already started, he seemed genuinely more interested in helping Connor than hurting Angel at that point. Wesley as a badass and his beautifully fucked up relationship with Lilah help to make it a strong season. Series 4...oh dear. The villains just do not work. The big twist that the entire events of the series are a setup for Jasmine's arrival is unforeshadowed and generally completely awful. And Cordelia as a villain just doesn't work. The character was a bitch, but always had something else there. Why ruin that? Badass Wesley and the aforementioned Lilah stuff are redeeming features, and the Faith/Angelus arc is genuinely brilliant - but all those good points do not make up for the other two thirds of the season that failed. Still enjoyable, but poor by Buffyverse standards. Series 5 suffered from executive meddling - more action, less arc. Pity. Eve and Knox are not good characters and the last half of the season is completely rushed. The episode with the Immortal is one of the worst pieces of fiction I've ever seen, and is completely irredeemably awful. Fortunately, the rest of the last 6 episodes are fantastic, which makes up for it. Puppet Angel is also a complete win.
My name is Addy. You may refer to me as such.
Series 1 is too Monster of the Week for my tastesWhat it lacks is a good arc. The monsters stay the same throughout. I tend to be willfully blind to the campiness of s.1. The cribbing from Batman, the P.I. office, the rubber forehead demons (though still not as bad as Buffy's literal Loan Shark). It's remarkable how quickly we understand Angel as a character. He gets a new family, then has to deal with the sorrows that come with having people you care about get hurt.
Series 2 and 3 are easily the best for me. The final arc of S2 was a bit too lighthearted for the series I think, but still had good moments and just about worked.It took a long time for the show to form an interesting arc. S.2 had Darla, but it was kind of a slog until Angel threw Holland and the others to the wolves. People seems to be divided on how the season wrapped with a happy-looking bow on top. I grew up with Xena and other medieval crap television, so I admit to a certain camp nostalgia for Pylea. It didn't outstay its welcome, so I give it a pass. Holtz is a pretty eerie character. At first I found him a bit shallow, and then later realized that he's the abstraction of all of Angel's victims. Obviously they're not going to care whether or not he's suddenly gone straight. Wesley's personality change is a little implausible, and I think to some extent that we're supposed to roll with it. Just watch him with Faith next season. They behave like a master-apprentice Sith duo with a long history, when really they were never that close.
Series 4...oh dear. The villains just do not work.The majority of s.4 is terrible. The soaperizing of the characters, already begun the previous year, blossomed into a true mess. First of all, we have people standing in rooms talking in shot reverse shot about stuff everyone knows — bog standard, Days of Our Lives writing. Everyone is shipped with someone else. Cordelia's arc is sleep-inducing and smacks of punishment for Charisma getting preggo. However, the stuff with the Beast and Jasmine is some of the best the show produced. The heroes are pushed out of their element, not in a silly way like with Pylea, but a real Mad Max dystopia. And then, it turns on its head — Jasmine makes everyone sunny and pink, and the 'good' characters are left to fend for themselves in sewers and dark alleys. You can't tell me that Body Snatchers plot didn't bring out the best in everyone — especially Fred (whom I never had much use for previously).
Series 5 suffered from executive meddling - more action, less arcAnd it's a big joke. "wow, we used to fight this evil law firm, but now we're in control and trying to exact change from within. Isn't that right, Angel, the vampire with a soul who is also my employer?" Way to invite new viewers to test the waters, idiots. The whole show looks cheap, too, probably because of the new sets. Add to that half of the cast rendered useless by the move, and a bunch of new, annoying characters who sit on their asses, and it's a worse mess than Four. I used to love s.5, but the more time passes, it just seems ponderous and makes me queasey.
Raven WilderSeason 5 was actually my favorite season. I felt like they were really willing to explore and try out anything that year. Only part I really hated was the nature of Wolfram & Hart's "apocalypse"; it buys into the whole "the world keeps getting worse over time" philosophy, ignoring how war, crime, and disease have been on a more or less steady decrease (relative to population) over the last several centuries. But yeah, Puppet!Angel is da boss.
"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Ahr riverSeason 5 had Harm's Way. Season 5 is good in my book.
Only part I really hated was the nature of Wolfram & Hart's "apocalypse"; it buys into the whole "the world keeps getting worse over time" philosophyHmm, I'll try to keep this short, but I bet it's gonna get wordy. You're looking at it from the viewer's perspective rather than that of the characters. Here are these (kinda) young idealists who were co-opted by the establishment with promises of Change and Real Difference. From what I've read of Howard Zinn and others, this has been going on since the sixties and seventies, not just in the corporate "Well, it pays the rent" sense, but hippies from the nuclear freeze movement getting suckered into rubbing elbows with Harvard types and such. So, from the POV of Wolfram & Hart, they've completely neutered them. And if you take it a step further, the message is no different from the Wachowskis (Joss is an avowed Matrix fan) making a point about indoctrination being a prison of tought. If you can convince people that the society around them is a hunky dory place and passively accept the status quo, that in itself is damaging. Personally, I thought the "invisible" Apocalypse angle was pretty lame, to tell the truth. But I at least see we're they were going with it, even if it was hammy. (Angel's speech about stocks and ants was the zenith of dumb.)
edited 6th Aug '12 6:48:14 PM by johnnyfog
Just finished watching all 7 seasons in a massive Archive Binge so thread necromancy ho! Fair warning, spoilers ahead. Season 3 was defiantly the best, with 2 close behind. The show had Grown the Beard and it had found its own style, but hadn't gotten as overly dramatic as the later seasons. I loved drunk!Spike in season 3 and neutered!Spike in season 4 (his dialogue with Willow when he first breaks out of the Initiative is one of the funniest things on TV) but he stuck around far too long and the plot of him falling in love with Buffy was irritating, though it did work when the relationship was mutual hate sex. I didn't like season 5 at all, the Cosmic Retcon with Dawn irks me, even though I love her as a character and the finale was pants-on-head retarded. I loved the Trio, I was getting sick of every villain trying to end the world, and a bunch of geeks playing super-villain and getting stuck in the deep end was a refreshing change. Magic seduces and is dangerous if overused subplot, fine, great even. Magic as a literal drug, crack houses and all? less so. Favourite episode, Band Candy. The world needs more Ripper Giles. Favourite parings, Season 3 Willow/Xander. Season 7 Buffy/Xander, the married couple dynamic in the first few episodes was great. More random thoughts to come.
SYMBOLISM!!!!Any favourite eps? I like Fear Itself, Hush, The Body and Once More With Feeling. Plus whatever that ep where the First wants to get Angel to kill again was called. Though there are plenty of good eps that I loved but just don't remember as well...
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
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