Everything's confusing with "EverythingsBetterWith" tropes NEW CROWNER 06/20/13: Everythings Better With Indexes

Deadlock Clock: 1st Jan 2014 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [338]
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, or, more accurately, Everything's worse than I thought with "Everything's Better With" tropes

Gee, it's good to be back home. :)

Anyway, methinks most of "EverythingsBetterWith" tropes need at best a serious example cleanup, some - even an article rewrite. Seriously, these tropes are supposed to be about gratuitous use of animals in cases where there's no logical explanation for that, except the Rule of Cool or Rule of Funny. But many examples and some articles are more like "name all shows with this animal". This... should be fixed.

So, let's try to fix 'em, guys 'n' gals.

  • These tropes should be only about gratuitous use of X.
    • Thus, most articles should be rewritten or at least tweaked.
    • There should be a warning on every such page, in bold letters, that This trope is not about any works containing X that you think are good. This trope is about works where X were inserted without any logical reason, just for the Rule of Cool or Rule of Funny. Know the difference.
    • Most examples should be cleansed.
  • Animal stereotypes, like Cunning Like a Fox, should be moved to the Animal Tropes index (maybe they even need a specific Animal Stereotype Index).

What do you think?

Everything's Better With Indexes - the index page, for convenience.

Minor things: Rewrite or tweak article, add warning, cleanse examples



Remove a confusing redirect name


Leave as is

Undecided, need your advice

Currently discussed elsewhere:


And that's all, folks. Need your opinions, suggestions, etc.

I'll probably start with minor changes (example cleansing in obvious cases, warnings insertion, small article tweaking). Meanwhile, I hope this thread gets some more attention and discussion.

edited 6th Jan '11 3:05:42 AM by Zulfiqar

What they're supposed to be about is when X is inserted gratuitously into a work because hey, everyone loves X, right? Let's throw some X in there!

For example, there's no real reason for Timesplitters to have monkeys. It's a sci-fi themed First-Person Shooter. But it has monkeys anyway because Everything's Better with Monkeys. In contrast, The Pebble and the Penguin is explicitly about penguins. The penguins are there because the plot demands it. It does not count as Everything's Better with Penguins.

That's what it's supposed to be. I'm sure there's lots of misuse and Trope Decay.

edited 30th Dec '10 2:57:00 AM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
3 DragonQuestZ30th Dec 2010 03:03:18 AM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Um, perhaps we should hard split off the animal tropes into a sub index. Call it Gratuitous Animals, or something like that. If we have to, we rename the most misused tropes so that the name makes it clear it's about gratuitous uses.

edited 30th Dec '10 3:03:33 AM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
I agree that Cunning Like a Fox shouldn't be in this index at all. It's a distinct trope.

In theory, I'd love to restrict the "everything's better with..." tropes to gratuitous use of the animals. However, in practice it can be hard to decide what's gratuitous and what's not.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
To Troacctid: Thanks, your comment helped me understand those tropes better. I reworked my main post a bit since your comment.

To Dragon Quest Z: Do you really think a specific Gratuitous Animals page is needed? I'd rather suggest categorizing the existing Everything's Better With Indexes page into several categories: e.g., Animals, Professions, Materials, etc. What do you think?

To Doktorvon Eurotrash: True, there's some subjectiveness there... but isn't that the case with many tropes? As I understand it, it's when X has no plot- and/or setting-related reason to be their, but is shoved in because of Rule of Cool or Rule of Funny. Yes, it's a bit subjective, but imho not 100% subjective.

Would like to hear everyone's opinions about things discussed in my first post.

For me, it's clear that we've stumbled into a major instance of Trope Decay here. It's almost like, I wanted to dig out a weed in my garden and unearthed an Eldritch Abomination larger than my city. Most of these tropes need cleansing or rewriting or renaming or at least some tweaking. Some even need to be expunged, probably.

But that's my view of the situation. Want to hear yours.

edited 30th Dec '10 2:55:48 PM by Zulfiqar

Wow that's a lot of snowclones. Change the names of (or cut? heh) the ones where "the something" is not gratuitously added? (E.g. Everything's Better with Monkeys is good, Everything's Better with Penguins is bad.)

The gratuitously-added whatevers are probably not 100% random and unrelated to the work in very many cases, so yeah, it's a little subjective, but barely...

edited 30th Dec '10 3:13:41 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
I'd clean ups and maybe some mergers.
[[User Banned]]_ My Pm box ix still open though, I think?
Just renamed Everythings Rascally With Raccoons to Rascally Raccoon. I know unilateral renames are usually frowned on, but this new title is more a shortening of the old one than a different one, and it has improved Added Alliterative Appeal.
[up] Were there any secondary or discussion pages to move? Wicks to correct? What happened to the ptitle? (Is there a way for me to check myself? Couldn't find it.)

Renaming is a lot more than just making a new page and pasting in the contents of the old one. Usually do that last, because it gets in the way of doing the other stuff :)

edited 30th Dec '10 9:16:11 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
That trope had no discussion except for the YKTTW, so I moved that. Did a "related to" search in another tab before editing, which made changing the Wicks easier. The ptitle is currently only on the Cut List and a contributor's page which I'm reluctant to edit.
To rodneyAnonymous: Actually, snowclones per se aren't bad... when they're used properly. Which, sadly, isn't the case here :( However, I think we should first try to correct the wrong usage, before deciding that a trope is "bad" and expunging it.

Tp americanbadass: I'm sorry, could you please clarify: You'd do cleanups and mergers, or you'd support them?

To Prfnoff: Shouldn't renames be crownered or something? Anyway. Now, I think, the examples need a cleanse (Rocket Raccoon and the The Raccoons cartoon series are not this trope). And I guess, we should suggest to completely remove Everythings Rascally With Raccoons, even as a redirect.

Need help with raccoons. UPD: Go to the Rascally Raccoon page and look for notices in bold letters, if you want to help.

Purged all the other non-rascally raccoons. Moving on to wicks. EDIT: Wicks purged, except those listed above.

edited 31st Dec '10 10:43:33 AM by Zulfiqar

Reworked the list in the main post.

Now I hope it will be more useful for the tropers who want to help us in sorting out this mess. :)

Note: The actions tropes are sorted by (e.g., Rename), are:
  • a) Suggested. If you have another suggestion about what to do with a specific trope, voice it here!
  • b) First actions. If a trope is listed under, e.g., "Rename", it doesn't mean that its examples don't need cleansing. Just, first things first.

Laconic entries! We should not forget to check Laconic entries!

Just changed Everything Is Better With Indexes' Laconic entry. If you're curious, it said: "Indexes are Made of Win". No comments.

edited 31st Dec '10 4:31:27 AM by Zulfiqar

Oh...wow...that's probably the most thorough Trope Repair Shop proposal I've ever seen. surprised

Well, in regards to Everything's Better with Monkeys, it shouldn't need a split because monkeys and apes are pretty much treated exactly the same. Apes, monkeys, whatever, same diff, right?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
To Troacctid: Thanks :) Actually, when I started it, I didn't look at the index (the fool!), and thought "Oh, it's just a couple animal-related tropes". Heh.

As for monkeys and apes... I thought gorillas get somewhat different treatment than monkeys. Maybe it's a Western Comics things, though...

Actually, after thinking this over, you're right. Just categorizing the page into 2 categories (Monkeys and Apes) will be OK. I'll change the main post to reflect this.

UPDATE: Rascally Raccoon is finished. There are still 4 dubious examples; I added a notice in bold letters to each one. Go see the Rascally Raccoon page to see how it turned out, if you want.

I plan to do the same with all mentioned pages that require example cleansing.

But now - a break for New Year :) Happy 2011 everyone! :D

edited 31st Dec '10 10:41:12 AM by Zulfiqar

"...snowclones per se aren't bad..."

Fully aware of that; not sure what part of my post implied that I don't know the difference. It is a lot of snowclones. It is also a lot of mostly bad snowclones.
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
not sure what part of my post implied
Oh, sorry I misunderstood you then.

It is also a lot of mostly bad snowclones.
Sadly, that is true.

I guess, the snowclone pattern itself ("Everything's Better With X") is, at least partly, to be blamed for this. People tend to misunderstand it as "X is cool! All works with X are cool and should be listed here!" In my opinion, patterns like "Instant Awesome Just Add X" and especially "Gratuitous X" are much better.

But... I'm not sure that we can really manage to rename a whole widespread snowclone pattern. Thus... we'll have to work with what we've got, I guess.
Dragon Writer
Even something like X Makes Everything Y would be better, e.g: Kittens Make Everything Cuter.

edited 1st Jan '11 5:46:55 PM by Stratadrake

To Stratadrake: True, it sounds much better. But... it still has that treacherous word, "Everything"... I guess, this word may be one of the main reasons that makes many tropers think those trope are "lists of everyting with X"...

I'll return to more active work on the "EBW" tropes in a few days. Until then, I hope the topic gets... well... a bit more attention.
UPD: A spin-off thread, where I suggest to change the whole "Everythings Better With" snowclone pattern, to lessen misuse. HERE

Meanwhile, cleaning examples...
I suggest renaming most ones that don't actually use "better" — everything's deader, everything's worse, etc. They're snowclones that don't make any sense.

The point of the trope is that writers treat it like anything can be improved by adding the animal in question — "everything's deader with zombies" doesn't make any sense; it's just a snowclone.
To update this: I've renamed Beetle Mania to Beetle Maniac, and swapped Everythings Smellier With Skunks with its redirect, Smelly Skunk. There's more to follow, I think.

And shouldn't this go on "Special Projects"?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
[up]No, that's a different thread.

Update: Everything's Hotter With Flames has been renamed to Hot Paint Job, a suggestion of mine that the TRS discussion and crowner approved of.

edited 17th Feb '11 8:05:07 PM by Prfnoff

Bumping this up a bit.
25 Deboss22nd May 2011 04:03:14 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I agree with the general purpose of this discussion, but have little more to add.

Page Action: Everythings Better With Chocolate
16th Jun '13 1:37:49 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:

Total posts: 338
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