Lord of the Rings

We didn't have a thread about Lordofthe Rings in the Literature section yet. That needed rectification.

So to start off the discussion, let's go with this quote from Harry Potterandthe Methodsof Rationality.

Do you recognize the book on my desk, Harry?"

The inner part of Harry was screaming and banging its head against imaginary walls, while the outer Harry turned and stared at what proved to be -

There was a rather long pause.

Then Harry said, "It is a copy of The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien."

"You recognized a quote from that book," said Dumbledore, an intent look in his eyes, "so I assume you remember it well. If I am mistaken, let me be corrected."

Harry just stared at him.

"It is important to understand," said Dumbledore, "that this book is not a realistic depiction of a wizarding war. John Tolkien never fought Voldemort. Your war will not be like the books you have read. Real life is not like stories. Do you understand, Harry?"

Harry, rather slowly, nodded yes; and then shook his head no.

"In particular," said Dumbledore, "there is a certain very foolish thing that Gandalf does in the first book. He makes many mistakes, does Tolkien's wizard; but this one error is the most unforgivable. That mistake is this: When Gandalf first suspected, even for a moment, that Frodo held the One Ring, he should have moved Frodo to Rivendell at once. He might have been embarrassed, that old wizard, if his suspicions had proven false. He might have found it awkward to so command Frodo, and Frodo would have been greatly inconvenienced, needing to set aside many other plans and pastimes. But a little embarrassment, and awkwardness, and inconvenience, is as nothing compared to the loss of your whole war, when the nine Nazgul swoop down on the Shire while you are reading old scrolls in Minas Tirith, and take the Ring at once. And it is not Frodo alone who would have been hurt; all Middle-Earth would have fallen into slavery. If it had not been only a story, Harry, they would have lost their war. Do you understand what I am saying?"

"Er..." said Harry, "not exactly..." There was something about Dumbledore when he was like this, which made it hard to stay properly cold; his dark side had trouble with weird.

"Then I will spell it out," said the old wizard. His voice was stern, his eyes were sad. "Frodo should have been moved to Rivendell at once by Gandalf himself - and Frodo should never have left Rivendell without guard. There should have been no night of terror in Bree, no Barrow-downs, no Weathertop where Frodo was wounded, they could have lost their entire war any of those times, for Gandalf's folly!"

Do you think Yudkowsky's right? Wrong? Half-right or wrong? Why?

Haven't read it in ages, but I always did think it was a little weird that Gandalf dawdled so much at the beginning. It's one reason why Book 1 of LOTR is my least favorite.

I think part of it's because the Shire is so obscure that Sauron had never even heard of it before he knew a hobbit had his Ring. It's a tiny little country filled with smoking farmers, why would he care about it? The Ring's fairly safe in obscurity, whereas it wouldn't be at Rivendell, where even Bilbo stands out.

And then there's also the point that Frodo's life wasn't what Gandalf was concerned about, mostly. He's been alive for thousands upon thousands of years and has seen many good and innocent die for lesser causes; he knows that there's an afterlife and that Iluvatar is good; and his main priority is destroying the Ring and its corrupting influence as soon as possible, once he was sure it was the Ring and not a ring.

Actually, given the corrupting power of the Ring, can you imagine what it would do to Rivendell? To Elrond, if it stayed there too long? We saw the effect on Gandalf and Galadriel from only a little exposure.

But don't they only find the Ring because Frodo puts it on in The Prancing Pony? (or is that only the movie?)

The Nazgul can hone in on the Ring's exact location when it's being worn, as in the Prancing Pony, but they knew it was in the Shire and that a hobbit named Baggins had it because Gollum told Sauron under torture.

What about all of the times Bilbo wore the ring? He used it a lot in The Hobbit and I doubt his birthday party was the only incident since then.

It's been a while since I read it but I think perhaps they weren't looking for it then. They didn't even know anyone had it.

You could equally ask about the times Gollum used the Ring, before Bilbo got it.

The book doesn't depict the Nazgûl instantly detecting the Ring's location when it's being worn. However, putting it on allows them to see you.

re "not searching for the Ring in The Hobbit" - As others pointed out, the whole "homing in on you when you wear the ring" is a movie invention. In the book they knew Frodo was in Bree because a spy told them.

Also (and this is something Gandalf says point-blank), Sauron thought the ring had been destroyed (or at least so freaking lost that he could never find it in a million years) before he happened to run into Gollum. and besides that, he was busy trying to get to Mordor and establish his power base, so the ring was the last thing on his mind. Sauron doesn't meet Gollum until decades after the events of The Hobbit.

re Gandalf not moving Frodo to Rivendell immediately: The thing is Gandalf wanted an element of secrecy about the whole thing. Hobbits are chatters and if Gandalf just upped and carried Frodo away, he'd be calling attention to himself. That's why Frodo and his friends go through all the B.S. of pretending to move in at Crickhollow and travelling under assumed names and all. In my mind its also possible that Gandalf expected Saruman to give him tools or information that would help him fight the ringwraiths (as opposed to being backstabbed like he was), and he felt a delay was worth it if he could come back with an edge of some sort.

edited 7th Dec '10 11:50:30 PM by MoeDantes

But doesn't something like the «homing in on the ring» thing happen when Frodo is on Amon... I think Lhaw?

Sauron was already on the watch, and the Ring caused Frodo to somehow stand out to him when he happened to glance that way. He only "homed in" in the sense that he saw something that bore further investigation.

edited 8th Dec '10 12:41:59 AM by MoeDantes

I always found the notion that Sauron really believed the Ring to have been destroyed a little hard to credit, because he seemed perfectly aware when he saw Frodo with the Ring in Mount Doom that destroying it would destroy him too (or at least weaken him so much it amounted to the same thing). Also, Word of God establishes that while Sauron can't automatically find the Ring, he is in constant rapport with it and can draw on a degree of its power even when he doesn't have it/ can't find it. However, while Bilbo had the Ring Sauron was both weaker and had no idea where it was, so on the occasions when Bilbo did use it, neither Sauron nor his servants were looking at that obscure part of the world and were never even in a position to notice.

The entire point of Frodo takings his time leaving the Shire - even going so far as to sell Bag End and buy another house and put about rumors that he's going to live there because he's running out of money - is to enable him to leave quietly, without arousing great suspicion. Keeping the Ring in obscurity in the Shire, and moving it quietly to Rivendell, seemed like a wiser plan than moving it rapidly to Rivendell in a way that would arouse a great deal of attention and alert Sauron to the presence of the Ring.

Had Gandalf done as the writer suggests, Sauron would have known quickly that something of great importance had been moved from the Shire to Rivendell, would have deduced it was the Ring, and would have focused immediately on raising a force to assault Rivendell, instead of trying to move in relative secrecy to intercept Frodo, as he did.

Besides this, the Istari are forbidden to use force or compulsion to direct the movements of others; they must use guidance and persuasion. Convincing Frodo to leave Bag End and everything familiar and go to stay permanently in Rivendell on the basis of guesswork and possibility would not have been likely to succeed.

I don't think he meant when Gandalf failed by not transporting Frodo to Rivendell when he knew the Ring was the Ring; he meant when that Gandalf failed by not doing so when he suspected that the Ring was the Ring.

And I think Saruman's best theory on the subject was that the Ring had rolled into the Anduin and been transported to the ocean. Eternally lost, as it were.

I agree with Maridee, way up at the top. Elrond seems like the perfect target for the ring. He's wise enough to think he can handle it and powerful enough to do something with it. With him under its control, the Ring could dominate Rivendell, which would be evenly matched w/ Mordor.

Do you think Yudkowsky's right? Wrong? Half-right or wrong? Why?

One thing I'd like to know is, what is Harry's response to this in the afformentioned fanfic?

If Harry himself question's Dumbledore's assessment, then I have no further qualms. If not, then it seems like Yudkowsky, like a lot of "rational thinkers," has made the mistake of coming to a conclusion without taking into account all the data.

@ Ultrayellow: And while that would be epic, not the result Gandalf would want. Someone should write a fanfic about it, though.

@ Moe Dantes: Dumbledore was making a point about why he wasn't letting Harry go back to his home and was instead keeping him at Hogwarts for the summer. Harry had more important things to do than worry about interpretations of Tolkien mythology.

Clearly, though, I don't.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I meant that Gandalf probably didn't send Frodo right away because he didn't want that.

I always considered it the case that as long as Sauron didn't know where the ring was Gandalf considered the Shire the perfect hiding place. If I recall correctly (it has been some time since I read the first book mind you) Gandalf only decided to move Frodo & The Ring once he knew Sauron knew.

Here's a thought: Sam is the biggest hero of the entire trilogy, not Frodo. Sam never falters or fails and willingly gives up the ring. I'm not arguing that Frodo is unheroic, simply that Sam is far more so.

It seems like Sam does do a lot more, particularly toward the end.

Actually, I can't quite remember, but I think there's a letter where Tolkien admits that Sam ended up being the hero.

It seemed to me that Sam wasn't better or worse, just less sophisticated. He was tempted by the ring too, it was just that the vision the ring showed him was so pathetic it didn't convince him. IIRC the ring offered to plant gardens and never let anyone chop down trees. But yes, if not for the fact that he was kind of an idiot (which was one of the things the Fellowship was for, before they got sidetracked) Sam would have been a better choice.

I remember the first time my sister read the book, she was disappointed that it switches focus from Frodo to Sam.

I don't have any feelings one way or the other about it.

edited 11th Dec '10 12:31:33 AM by MoeDantes

@Ultrayellow: I thought that was what we both meant. *shrug*

Sam's a stronger person than Frodo, IMO, because he went with him to Mordor for loyalty, refused the Ring's promises of power and making everything better, and was able to come back from Mordor and live.

More of a hero? That's like comparing apples and oranges. They're two different kinds of people, with two different kinds of bravery that take different stuff out of them.

Sam might have endured the journey to Mordor taking the Ring in Frodo's place, but he also might have shattered once he had done so. He's an earthy, practical guy who wants a garden of his own and a family. Frodo's more...delicate, in a sense, as an Elf-friend, but also aspires to higher things and adventures.

edited 13th Dec '10 3:49:22 PM by Maridee

I agree with that. Sam was the stronger of the pair.

edited 13th Dec '10 3:50:27 PM by Ultrayellow

But doesn't something like the «homing in on the ring» thing happen when Frodo is on Amon... I think Lhaw?

Amon Hen, I believe; Amon Lhaw was on the other side of the river.

As noted above, Sauron was already on high alert. Also, IIRC, Amon Hen ("the Hill of Sight") was a magic location and may have "amplified the signal" so to speak.