SFdebris

Comparing Neelix to Data or Spock is like comparing sleeping on a nice bed to sleeping on a pile of glass. Its not even close. It sounds like Berman just didn't want to admit he was screwing the franchise into the ground and no one was willing to stop him.

edited 21st Sep '14 3:04:14 PM by Wilahelm02

Berman, Gene Roddenberry and Lucas had/have the same problem: their success is due in part to the efforts of others. Ask them and "It's All About Me" is their answer.

Roddenberry had Gene Coon, D.C. Fontana, Harlan Ellison et al. Lucas had help from a lot of Hollywood a-list and indie directors like Stephen Speilberg. Berman had a team of writers who were willing to take a chance (Ron Moore being the breakout star).

But success went to their heads. They were unwilling to have another set of eyes look at things. Season one of TNG was Gawd-awful, cringe worthy and chock full of Unfortunate Implications, The "Special Edition" of the Star Wars trilogy should have tipped Lucas off that maybe he needed some new blood in the franchise. Berman should have taken a look at the scripts that worked and seen that maybe he should have worked with those writers and given Bragga some space.

But no, these guys had a Reality Distortion Field that Steve Jobs would envy. Jar Har Binks, Neelix, Enterprise, all happened because no one had the courage to say no.

edited 21st Sep '14 4:12:30 PM by TairaMai

Jar Jar at least faded. (I like to imagine that after Palpatine dissolved the senate Jar Jar was forced to retire and live out many years knowing his stupidity led to the rise of the empire... and he was depressed.)

Chuck was right about going into Voyager pumped (I know I was) but... one has to wonder why the SET UP of the show was all about risks and then they worked so hard to avoid said risks.

In hindsight even if they wanted to play it kind of safe they could have done wonders with the formula Burn Notice perfected: the A plot is Mot W (or in Star Trek's case: Aot W) while the B plot is the arc of the show (in Voyager's case, probably doing something like repairs on the ship, character interactions, etc). Hell with the Swarm they DID that! (A: dealing with aliens, B: saving the doctor)

Although the other day I was thinking... what if they had made B'Elanna the nurse/assistant to the doctor? (no offense to Kes, I mean instead of uber-mensch Tom) Those two bouncing off each other as they healed the crew... THAT could have been some entertainment.

Heh, considering Klingon medicine...

See what I mean?

The more you think about it the more you want to see it!

Berman, we should remember, agreed to have Michael Piller, Ron D. Moore, and Ira Behr come work for him over the years. Braga repelled each of them away, he wanted total control.

We tend to heap blame on Berman, but remember that VOY was the first network-owned Trek. It had double the amount of executives to climb over. I'm of the opinion that Berman was basically a yes-man. Stories come out of him being a jerk or homophobe or whatever, but I always thought those were overblown. He did whatever the studio told him. By all accounts the execs weren't content with replicating the success of Spock or Data, they wanted to quadruple that success and decreed that no human characters could upstage the aliens. The writers couldn't save money on bottle shows (typically psychological or character dramas) without catching heat from upstairs. That's why they promoted the Doctor to full time regular (originally he was just a drop-in character) and a mini-Borg collective to their "alien" roster. Piller got creative by changing Seska into a Cardassian and adding a crazed Betazed to the crew. But Braga and Jeri Taylor didn't like havng to handle someone else's characters so they killed them all off, and Piller walked off in disgust. (Watch "Basics" to witness Pillar running out of fucks to give.)

And here we come to Braga, a pulp writer who wanted to be a slick executive. Watching him, a middle aged man, writing his sleazy fetishes into one script after another is enough to make you ashamed of enjoying Star Trek. And he categorically stated that he doesn't like threading other writers' story arcs or characters into his otherwise-fine episodes, so you can blame him for killing continuity on VOY, as well. You have to wonder if he got along with Manny Coto, if "These Are the Voyages" was the end result.

edited 22nd Sep '14 10:11:06 AM by johnnyfog

One thing I just realized I haven't really heard...

What's the actors' views on this? I mean we know things like Garrett Wang being told to "be bland" (and how he was helped in that one episode) but... actors have inputs too (even if frustrated).

How did Kate see Janeway? How did she want Janeway to be? Ethan Philips and Neelix? Scott Bakula has talent we know, what was up with Archer?

If is right about Braga's insanity... I wonder if the actors' desires were frustrated and if any of them took it out in small ways during production.

Russ is vocal about how burnt-out he was; he doesn't even hide it in the featurettes. Beltran, Russ and Wang spent most days just chilling on the bridge set with nothing to do, so they're the most critical. Even Ethan Phillips doesn't have much to complain about, aside from the early makeup call; he's in every episode and has lots to do. He even got to bang a Klingon babe (because Quark did the same thing and the execs said, Do Quark Again).

Mulgrew interviews are hard to come by — second-hand sources from conventions. Apparently she has choice words for Jeri Taylor, but I can't find them. In public, at least, she has always praised Jeri Ryan. She's an old pro and much too disciplined.

The problem with Wang is that he mocks everybody, including Kirk, the fans, himself, and showbiz in general. I've heard one of his podcasts; he's likeable enough for a dudebro.

edited 22nd Sep '14 9:53:02 AM by johnnyfog

Wait... so Garrett Wang in real life is like how Tom originally was supposed to be?

That's... all kinds of hilarious.

It sounds like a too many cooks in the kitchen situation with no one able to really take charge. If the writers were undermining each other that badly its a miracle it managed to get to season seven. Is there any sort of definitive behind the scenes account that tells what happened?

The fall of modern Trek began with Voyager and reached its twisted end with Enterprise and Nemesis. The story of how one of the great sci-fi franchises of all time crashed and burned is something I'd buy.

Just an aside, but what always bugged me about this show and ruined it finally — and VOY is, when all is said and one, a decent piece of 90's filler — was the steel gray set. It's so boring to look at. The sets are too functional and blocky to be shot an interesting way, and lots of directors tried. I'll bet that's why they go to red alert all the time, to dim the lights.

Berman said that part of the decision to set ENT in the past (aside from apeing the Star Wars prequels) was because the staff was having trouble making each ship look more futuristic than the last one. And you can see them struggling here. Make it more grey, more minimalist, more empty.

Gel packs is also a very nineties idea; that's when manufacturers were incorporating gel pads into everything, like toothbrushes and shoes.

edited 22nd Sep '14 6:19:06 PM by johnnyfog

Honestly, only DS 9 I found to have "good" interior set for their main locale. TNG has the enterprise all beige and bland and the bridge looks like a hotel lobby (and the corridors like a hotel corridor). Voyager and Enterprise are both boring and grey (Though I'd give Enterprise a slight improvement in that it looks more... mechanical? Ship-like?). DS 9 at least has the odd nods to the Cardassian design of the station, and well, being a station, gives us I think more to work with.

edited 22nd Sep '14 6:06:24 PM by Ghilz

I have a feeling Ops (the DS9 bridge) was an inspiration for CIC. If you look at the concept drawings, they're both circular pits.

The ships on TOS and TNG weren't very militarized, I grant you. The bright lighting made the spaces really pop, visually, and the bridge design — whatever you think of it — had lots of chairs consoles and crannies. This topic is starting to sound academic, so excuse me, but you can position the camera at Spock/Uhura's station as the crew crowds around him, and it almost looks like a separate room. It was designed with that in mind. Nowadays the "horseshoe" bridge on TNG looks slightly retarded, but it made a nice visual whenever Picard stood in front and looked back at everyone. Same goes for the conference room and Ten Forward: those are big spaces. (DS9 had a sick conference room, although I think it's called the Ward Room...)

VOY's sets were very, very sparse. Picard had his fish, models, paintings. Janeway had...potted plants. She did have a Wall of Weapons in "Latent Image" (which was actually kinda badass), but no sign of personality the rest of the time. Same goes for the galley and that ridiculous conference room table. The bridge didn't even have a proper seat for the helmsman. It looks more like a turntable.

edited 22nd Sep '14 6:39:57 PM by johnnyfog

BSG's CIC is really a roomier version of a RL Aircraft Carrier CIC with less vertical boards coz those get in the way of camera angles.

TNG's Ten Forward is fine, the conference room is alright - elevated by the mural. But the bridge, even without being militarized never clicked for me. It never felt like a bridge. And it never looked functional. Notice how Picard always needs to be standing to talk to Worf/Tasha.

Look at almost every other bridge (Except Voyager's) and the Captain is front and center of the bridge. On TNG? He looks like they gave him a seat there so he'd be out of everyone's way.

edited 22nd Sep '14 6:54:31 PM by Ghilz

SG-1 Bloodlines

Well he did surrender 20 minutes into the first episode... I keep him out of everybody's way too

Yay. My first Patreon request. And I get a Terran Empire logo. Sweet.

Beebop: Toys in the attic

Plot twist: it was all a dream.

Its actually implied to be if you take the next episode of spike waking talking about a weird dream.

I was not being facetious.

Just rewatched "Move Along Home".

That was supposed to be Ingmar Bergman, wasn't it?

Empok Nor aka why I'm too scared to ever watch Dirty Harry.

edited 27th Sep '14 6:51:45 AM by lrrose

Thor's Chariot (note NOT the latest Marvel movie)

Ahhh the Asgard, The type of Aliens you wish were out there