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Rebuild of Evangelion:

Sapient Blob of Tofu
Hold on, Eva had a plot in the last few episodes? From what I can remember, about halfway through the show stopped being about fighting monsters and started becoming about how the Eva pilots were slowly losing their minds.

I mean, Shinji had a full-on Heroic BSOD after he was forced to kill the only person he really trusted, due to that person actually being a double agent trying to wipe out humanity. So to me, the last two episodes being about Shinji falling completely into the pit of madness and crawling out again made complete sense.

Of course, the fun part about Death of the Author is that no two people ever watch the same show.

BTW my remark about genre appropriateness was not intended as a Take That, I'm just a Deadpan Snarker. That said, that frickin' Evangelion movie was without a doubt the worst damn movie I ever watched. I simply refuse to accept that the end of the world is heralded by the Macintosh bootup noiose.
Again with the data mining, dear Aunt?
"But frankly, that's an extremely specific circumstance so I can see why people were upset that they didn't get something more genre appropriate."

Heh, maybe this explains something. I've never been particularly interested in the super robot genre.

"I mean, Shinji had a full-on Heroic BSOD after he was forced to kill the only person he really trusted, due to that person actually being a double agent trying to wipe out humanity."

Shinji had an ENTIRELY AND EXTREMELY JUSTIFIED Heroic BSOD (fuck you, Gendo!) when fighting Unit 04 (episode 18). And that stuck in my mind way more.

I don't get why people remember the Kaworu part so much more than the Toji part. I was unimpressed by the Kaworu part. Maybe that was because I'd read endlessly about it before. And I just didn't like it. It had too little drama.

See, funny thing is, my reaction to the Kaworu part is similar to the standard reaction to the Eps. 25-26 ending—that it was too philosophical and vague.

Perhaps I didn't mind Eps. 25-26 as much, because I somehow understood it to be a "beyond the edge" segment. The plot, as much as I'd understood it, had mostly finished, and we were in what I'd call The Endgame (a trope I'll launch later). (And I admit to not having paid much attention to the Third Impact conspiracy stuff.) Basically, I expected something weird to happen afterwards.

And yes, it wasn't a climax. But it was a relief. Episode 26, where Shinji basically discovers his own self-worth, is a relief, and a happy ending to a dreary series.

I personally advocate watching up to episode 24, then watching End of Evangelion, then watching episodes 25-26. In that order. Because that ties up the "external" plot, with an unfinished ending, and then finishes the "internal" plot with a positive (or positive-trending) conclusion.

"That said, that frickin' Evangelion movie was without a doubt the worst damn movie I ever watched."

Yep, I still dislike End Of. Unless you were talking a different Evangelion movie. (Rebirth?)
It Just Bugs Me! - a place to discuss media, real life, and other topics.
Sapient Blob of Tofu
I'm talking about End of. Rebirth was just a cynical cash-in using mostly recycled footage and as such I regard it as Dis Continuity.
Again with the data mining, dear Aunt?
And yes, there are explosions in the shape of Christian crosses.
I remember those, but I thought I read there was imagery of literal exploding crosses during that ep. 25-26 collage.
"I have run 10 miles a day, every day, for 18 years. That's 65,000 miles. A third of the way to the moon. My goal is to run to the moon."
 30 Alaska Slim, Mon, 23rd Mar '09 8:51:19 AM from Land of the Midnight Sun
Ethereal Canine
In reply to Shay Guy #24:

"How much can you leave out, and what can you leave out, before it ceases to be artistic and becomes simply bad storytelling? People have argued about such questions for...oh, I'd say almost thirteen years now."

Oh no, that discussion is far older then that, Eva certainly didnít start it.

In reply to Glenn Magus Harvey #27:

"Shinji had an ENTIRELY AND EXTREMELY JUSTIFIED Heroic BSOD (fuck you, Gendo!) when fighting [[spoiler Unit 04]] (episode 18). And that stuck in my mind way more."

Hate to be a nerd here, but that was actually Unit 03, the other died in a critical existence failure event before that fight.

"See, funny thing is, my reaction to the Kaworu part is similar to the standard reaction to the Eps. 25-26 endingóthat it was too philosophical and vague."

There was a reason for that, donít mean to preach to the choir, but the ending was meant to be interpreted, it was vague so that the viewer might decide for themselves both what it means, and how everything ends. This is hardly a new concept, one work which I can think of that does the same is the play J.B. by Archibald Mac Leish, which has some other striking similarities to Eva, but I digress.

In reply to Korgmeister #28:

"and as such I regard it as Dis Continuity."

In what sense, strictly in ď I donít like this, it shouldnít of happenedĒ or in the Canonical sense ? If the latter, Iíd say itís closer to a text book example of a Revised Ending, with it ironically being far closer to the ending the creator had intended in the first place.

edited 23rd Mar '09 9:04:42 AM by Alaska Slim

"Hate to be a [[Nerd nerd]] here, but that was actually Unit 03, the other died in a critical existence failure event before that fight."

Haha. I knew that. No, seriously, I did; I just threw the sentence together a bit hastily.

Also, you should have written [[{{Nerd}} nerd]].
It Just Bugs Me! - a place to discuss media, real life, and other topics.
 32 lee4hmz, Mon, 23rd Mar '09 8:58:59 AM from Giant Not-A-Base
Lurks too much
Just plain "nerd" with {{}} around it would work, too.
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 33 Furiko Maru, Mon, 23rd Mar '09 12:24:48 PM from The Arrogant Wasteland Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Reverse the Curse
I actually saw Rebirth before anything else. It's a fun way to be introduced to the series, if you like being confused, which I sometimes do.

I'm never going to not love the last two episodes, just because when I saw them, it was my first encounter with anyone trying to show on film what my mind was like. And it's still one of the only such explorations that doesn't ring false to me.

Also, I still don't get how the same people who call Shinji a whiny bitch can compare him unfavourably with Amuro Ray, considering the latter went emo and refused to keep fighting while the White Base was under attack, whereas Shinji's most quoted phrase is "I mustn't run away."

Almost completely off-topic, but That Dude In The Suede actually named Kaworu one of his Top 11 Creepiest Anime Villains, because since his Heroic Sacrifice (even if you don't think it was a Batman Gambit with a side of Xanatos) prompted Shinji's breakdown, "his actions directly affected even the audience's experience, prompting a generation of otaku to exclaim: 'What th'hell's goin' on? I mean what the hell is goin' on!?!? '"

And I've got to admit, I never have seen another bad guy manage that.

edited 28th Jun '09 7:26:31 PM by FurikoMaru

Math guy
I think the key thing is the outcome of their respective Heroic BSODs. Amuro's happened at a very bad time, yes, but Shinji's happened at an even worse time — and he didn't get snapped out of it. He never got a chance to get Rescued from the Scrappy Heap.
Pronounced "shy guy."

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 35 Furiko Maru, Mon, 23rd Mar '09 3:12:53 PM from The Arrogant Wasteland Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
Reverse the Curse
Maybe you're right. But see, for me - and I know this has been said before in this thread - the important difference isn't what comes after, it's what comes before.

Amuro is pissed that his dad might be dead and he's been pulled out of his civilian life without his consent in order to protect the lives of the people on board the White Base. Quite a fucked up situation, to be sure.

Shinji is dealing with the fact that his father doesn't love him; his mother allowed herself to be integrated into the design of the EVA and hence essentially killed herself right in front of him; he's got to fight an all-out war with alien-mutant-whatevers in order to protect the entirety of the human race; he is forced to sit back and watch as he's made to severely injure one of the few friends he has - and even, in the manga, to kill him - and then kill Kaworu - the only person he's ever heard say loves him; one of his possible romantic partners is abusive as all get-out due to her own issues; another is his mom's clone; he's never had a normal human connection with anyone, as far as we can tell; and he's got obvious psychological problems even before he's made to start killing things. Fuck, at least Amuro got to fly a robot; Shinji got stuck driving around inside a gigantic Freudian symbol!

On that note, just how newbie-friendly is this thread? Three spoiler tags between the lot of us grin.

edited 28th Jun '09 7:27:52 PM by FurikoMaru

Math guy
That theory's been done to death and back. Still don't think anyone's explained how they propose to fit them in one continuity.
Pronounced "shy guy."

I have spent 4 months of my life outside my home country. Paste this into your sig with your data!
The Good Troper
Wiki Magic.
Mathematics Is A Language.
Math guy
2.0 is out in Japan. God only knows how long it'll be before it gets onto the P 2 P networks and then fansubbed, might not be until the DVD comes out. Until then, you can find reviews and spoilers online, please spoiler-tag any of the latter.
Pronounced "shy guy."

I have spent 4 months of my life outside my home country. Paste this into your sig with your data!
Shay Guy: God only knows

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrFhGkIehCg

Sorry, I'm in a YouTube Poop memetic cross-referencing mood right now.
It Just Bugs Me! - a place to discuss media, real life, and other topics.
 41 Furiko Maru, Sun, 28th Jun '09 3:06:34 PM from The Arrogant Wasteland Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
 42 AFGNCAAP, Sun, 28th Jun '09 3:19:39 PM from Great Underground Empire
Not axe crazy I swear
The thread is friendly for this kind of newbie. I prefer to read the spoilers first; knowing who is going to get hurt before the characters do can be intense.
Spoiler: People DIE.
It Just Bugs Me! - a place to discuss media, real life, and other topics.
 44 Tzetze, Sun, 28th Jun '09 5:43:10 PM from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB

edited 28th Jun '09 6:55:34 PM by Tzetze

 45 Sneeb, Sun, 28th Jun '09 6:52:01 PM from poo world (aka tvtropes)
super sugoi kawaii neko desuas
The final two episodes were a mind-screw and a half, but having been warned by damned near EVERYONE, it didn't sting quite so much. I'd have to agree Glenn Magus Harvey' episode order - getting the practical take of what happened does help the plot flow much more smoothly. But you MUST watch the final two episodes after End of Evangelion unless you want to remain depressed as hell. The only time I remember having such an adverse reaction to a film was watching Schindler's List (most notably my reaction to Ralph Fienne's role as Amon Goeth ). The combination of horror and disgust and anger wracked me for a good while afterwards.

Episode 25 & 26, at least, end on the heartwarming "Congratulations!" scene, and give the promise that - yes, even those who go through hell can survive it and earn a happy ending. My heart goes out to you, Furiko, for being touched by that kind experience - sometimes that kind of catharsis is what is needed.

In other threads I've made snide remarks against Eva, some more warranted than others. My beef with Evangelion does in no way attempt to debase it. I appreciate Evangelion's impact on the anime medium. As an artistic achievement it is extraordinarily noteworthy. I just didn't enjoy it. I'm going to wait until rebuild movies are completed - just so I can get fair warning about any emotional mind-fields I might be walking into.
an heroic gesture would do the world good
...Wow...thanks! You're the first person who's told me that they like my idea for watching eps 25-26 after End of Eva.

Heck, I'll admit that I haven't even tried doing that myself. But it was an afterthought following my watching End of Eva and feeling extremely bummed at the major, major downer ending.

Then realizing that the story's world should go to hell before you can make a story about characters coming back from hell.

edited 29th Jun '09 1:23:21 PM by GlennMagusHarvey

It Just Bugs Me! - a place to discuss media, real life, and other topics.
 47 Tzetze, Mon, 29th Jun '09 1:24:11 PM from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
It seems like a good idea to me. It would make the movie seem much less depressing, since you know that Shinji has grown as a person etc.

Personally, I would like the last two episodes to be expanded, so I could see the thoughts of other characters, like Asuka and Rei, in the same way. There was a bit of that but it was cut off.
Does Rei even have thoughts?

I mean...well, spoiler.
It Just Bugs Me! - a place to discuss media, real life, and other topics.
 49 Tzetze, Mon, 29th Jun '09 1:39:26 PM from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
She has a bit in episode #25, which I did not understand, but if it was expanded I might understand it.
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