El Goonish Shive

The problem there is that the way things played out, there was no way to plan anything in advance.

To some extent, I can forgive Magus for this, because I think his plan previously was "step 1, kick Sirleck out of my body; step 2, set him on fire; step 3, hurl him out the window," and all Ellen's interference meant was that he could skip step 1.

I guess this ultimately answers the question as to who was the dang fool who didn't anticipate what the other could do.

That said, until we see a charred pile of ashes or an obviously burnt corpse, I refuse to say that Sirleck is 100% dead and gone. If Sirleck does have the ability to survive this somehow, it'd probably behoove him to convince everyone he is dead - if there was ever a point in which one should Know When to Fold 'Em, it's right here. He doesn't have the power to defeat or control them, those present want him dead, and they'll totally leave him alone if they don't have reason to believe that he's still a threat.

Finally, wait, they started installing glass in the windows?

The Rant says that he is dead. Because who would go on the internet and tell lies?

I'm going to quote Neil Gaiman on this one - "Writers are liars."

Just thought of another thing. So Magus didn't think of what his body snatching vampiric acquaintance was going to do afterwards? Was he just going to be like "Okay dude, enjoy taking over someone's life, call me if you need any favors!" Because that doesn't sound like a very good thing to do. I guess that is more points for the "he knew about the double cross" side, but in that case I would expect him to say something more like "Just as I figured."

edited 23rd Mar '18 8:44:08 AM by DatLonerGirl

What he's saying is that he planned to kill Sirleck the whole time, and was probably counting on Sirleck betraying him as a justification for doing so.

Yep. He's saying that Sirleck should have wondered why Magus wasn't asking more questions. It's a taunt.

Yeah. That's exactly what he's saying. This was the plan the entire time: reach the Dewitchery Diamond, get his body back, and then kill Sirleck for being an evil monster. He never asked who Sirleck would take as his next host because he completely intended for Sirleck to never have another host again.

Everything happened exactly according to his plan. Even the part he had no control over and could never have planned for, because he and Ellen were both script-reading.

And possibly doesn't even know happened yet.

Thus EGS may have a new entry for Gambit Roulette

edited 23rd Mar '18 11:27:43 AM by sgamer82

Also, for more proof that the characters are script-reading, there's this line from Ellen:

• Sirleck: This is...impossible! How are you...?!
• Ellen: Maybe it's because I was born from magic.

Shive confirms in the blurb that this is the reason. She is able to flawlessly identify the precise metaphysic allowing her to do this on her first guess. Because script-reading.

It's not like she didn't already know she was born from magic before this, or that it provided advantages others didn't have.

Organically, she shouldn't have a response to that question at all. She's never been possessed before, nor does she have prior knowledge of how Sirleck's possessions normally go. This has literally never come up in her knowledge set or life experience.

That she's able to perfectly Ass Pull a flawless explanation for why her possession is abnormal is especially glaring because up until that exact moment where he challenges her on it, she should have no frame of reference to determine that it even is abnormal in the first place. She would have to have come up with that 100% accurate response in the spur of the moment.

This is the problem with spontaneously deciding that a character is going to take an active role in events after keeping them completely uninvolved in the entire plot to that point. Ellen is acting on information she's never received and has no reason to be able to deduce in half a second. Shive's trying to compensate for the main characters being passive bystanders in this arc up to this point, but it's too little, too late, and just makes more of a mess of things.

edited 23rd Mar '18 11:41:58 AM by TobiasDrake

Ah, I was misreading that - I thought he meant that it should have been a red flag for himself, not a red flag for Sirleck.

edited 23rd Mar '18 11:46:10 AM by ironballs16

I do like that he calls himself out on that. That feels organic. Like it's something Magus realized recently and he was like, "Oh, crap, I haven't asked about this. Is it too late? It's probably too late. It'll look suspicious if I try to bring it up now. Let's just hope he didn't notice."

Actually, come to think of it, his gloating could work if he legitimately doesn't realize that Sirleck was planning to possess him. The absence of a defense strategy would make sense if Magus thinks he's the one betraying Sirleck right now.

edited 23rd Mar '18 11:52:28 AM by TobiasDrake

I was of the mind that he expected Sirleck to try and possess his new body, and thus expected to be able to kick him out since his new body would be born of magic.

The same rules do apply, now that you mention it.

Oooh. I understand now.

I mean, there's also the possibility that Magus assumed that he would have been able to kick out Sirleck and destroy him if Sirleck attempted to possess him simply because Magus was just that inherently powerful - that's a bit of "six of one, half dozen of another" there, since, breaking it down to brass tacks, the reason Magus believed he'd be too powerful for Sirleck to control is inconsequential to the base belief itself.

That said, since it looks like Ellen fell unconscious after forcing Sirleck to manifest, I don't know what the heck Magus thought he could have done to attack Sirleck if he had been in Ellen's situation (namely, the one dealing with possession by Sirleck). It really seems like Sirleck could have made a clean get getaway in that case.

For what Sirleck should have expected or asked... Eh, Sirleck probably did think of it, probably realized what Magus was planning (on a rough scale, at least), and probably just figured (incorrectly) that he'd be able to handle it. Classic Smug Snake behavior.

For Ellen's script reading, the weird thing is that she just as easily could have said "I don't know... does it really matter?" instead of conjecturing about being made of magic. Or she could have just skipped to the "I'm that awesome" line. It would have flowed much better and not do the whole "read the script" thing that Shive's characters are wont to do.

I have one minor question that's more suited for a Q and A afterwards... just what would Magus have done if Sirleck hadn't fallen for the obvious bait?

Finally, one side thought I had... I wonder if Magus in a new body is going to run into whatever bad weird thing Ellen would have run into if not for the infamous Magic Nose Beep.

Well, no, that would have been because Ellen wasn't properly "ensouled" with her own life experiences, having only a copy of Elliot's. Magus' body, while a copy of Elliot's, has it's own "soul", mind and life experiences, that aren't a copy of anyone.

Well that's a very abrupt end to that guy.

Shit ton of build up but I guess it's finally over. One less plot thread to worry about.

Okay, got more than a few minutes of free time now.

Tobias, your problems with this sequence seem rather tenuous.
It's an asspull that a character remembers the reason she was specifically told she'd have an advantage in all things magic when asked why she has an advantage in this magic thing? That's not script reading, that's being able to recall basic information. Basic information that was probably more deeply embedded by her guilt at having teased Elliot when she had a natural(unnatural?) advantage over him.

As for why she knows she had an advantage, the guy screaming, "This is impossible!" probably clued her in.

Yes, this was always Magus' plan. Hell, I said at the time that Magus was being heavy handed in baiting Sirleck. You might want to call that script reading, because it's the script he wrote. Ellen just sped things up a bit.

It seems like reading that bit about giving Ellen more agency has made you see the sequence through a lens of "shoehorned and forced", but as for me I find it dovetails fairly neatly

edited 23rd Mar '18 9:16:21 PM by Daremo

Jesus hell, that was almost eight years ago.

I know this comic is slow but having such a stark reminder is like, what the crap.

edited 23rd Mar '18 9:27:02 PM by wingedcatgirl

Riight? Like whether it makes or doesn't make sense, I do not think the pay off was remotely worth the buildup.

Eh, it wouldn't be the first Anti-Climax in the comic's history - just look at Susan's fight against the uniforms. But as other tropers have pointed out, it also wouldn't be the first time an author lied about the death of a character in order to pull a harder punch at a future date.

I mean, yes, I agree, it would not be the first time Shive has given us an anti-climax :P