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Misuse of Vindicated By History, the games were successful from beginning (thread)


* VindicatedByHistory: Without a doubt the biggest case of this trope within the franchise thus far. For years, ''Black & White'' were considered the worst games in the series by older fans solely because they're "the ones with [[AnimateInanimateObject the ice cream and trash bag Pokémon]]" and the omission of all pre-Gen V Pokémon until the postgame. Fast-forward a few years, and they are now seen as some of, if not the best, with fans who have grown up with the games praising the large amount of new Pokémon (many of which have become fan favorites), the unique storyline that sees the credits rolling before you enter the Hall of Fame, the removal of AbilityRequiredToProceed for the main quest, and its lack of PanderingToTheBase; specifically Gen I. ''Black and White'' (and [[VideoGame/PokemonBlackAndWhite2 its sequels]]) were also the last games to utilize sprite art, before the mainline games underwent its retroactively base-breaking VideoGame3DLeap.
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** Similarly, the idea that Team Plasma [[VillainHasAPoint are right about humans and Pokémon]] ignores the variety of evidence that Pokémon legitimately enjoy battling and gaining human masters, and the vast majority of NPCs treat them as pets and companions. Even the PlayerCharacter of each game is usually stated to forge close bonds with their team, despite the early games lacking mechanics that let you spend time with your Pokémon outside of battle. Even characters like Silver from the Johto games recieve some form of PositiveFriendInfluence from the creatures they initially view as tools, putting the various evil teams in a ''miniscule'' minority.

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** Similarly, the idea that Team Plasma [[VillainHasAPoint are right about humans and Pokémon]] ignores the variety of evidence that Pokémon legitimately enjoy battling and gaining human masters, and the vast majority of NPCs [=NPCs=] treat them as pets and companions. Even the PlayerCharacter of each game is usually stated to forge close bonds with their team, despite the early games lacking mechanics that let you spend time with your Pokémon outside of battle. Even characters like Silver from the Johto games recieve some form of PositiveFriendInfluence from the creatures they initially view as tools, putting the various evil teams in a ''miniscule'' minority.
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** Similarly, the idea that Team Plasma [[VillainHasAPoint are right about humans and Pokémon]] ignores the variety of evidence that Pokémon legitimately enjoy battling and gaining human masters, and the vast majority of NPCs treat them as pets and companions. Even the PlayerCharacter of each game is usually stated to forge close bonds with their team, despite the early games lacking mechanics that let you spend time with your Pokémon outside of battle. Even characters like Silver from the Johto games recieve some form of PositiveFriendInfluence from the creatures they initially view as tools, putting the various evil teams in a ''miniscule'' minority.
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Misplaced, moving to the correct tab

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* IKnewIt:
** Castelia City, at least, [[http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=135756 is officially based off New York]], confirming the speculation of many fans.
** For some, [[spoiler:N being Team Plasma's king (and[=/=]or [[UnwittingPawn a pawn]])]] was this as well.
** Many people called Tepig's final evolution being called Emboar.
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Trope was cut/disambiguated due to cleanup


* EvilIsSexy:
** Believe it or not, Ghetsis. Sure, he's utterly twisted and evil — but still good-looking. If it wasn't for those ridiculous clothes, he'd be second to [[Anime/{{Monster}} Johan Liebert]] as the [[EvilIsSexy sexiest contender]] for "most evil person in history." He's already won awards for [[MrFanservice most handsome]] {{abusive|Parents}} father, beating [[Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion Gendo Ikari.]]
** While Ghetsis' appearance does turn off some, [[spoiler:his adoptive son]] N is considered very attractive - being basically a PrettyBoy and all.
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** Oshawott was known as Wotter/[[WesternAnimation/SouthPark Derpderp]]/Sno{{woobie}}/[[CuteLittleFangs Vampijumaru]]. With the reveal of its English name, it was memed as [[Franchise/MetalGear Revolver Oshawott]], which then inspired "Solid Snivy" and "Tepig Boss", as seen [[http://www.halolz.com/2010/11/24/revolver-oshawatt/ here.]]

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** Oshawott was known as Wotter/[[WesternAnimation/SouthPark Derpderp]]/Sno{{woobie}}/[[CuteLittleFangs Vampijumaru]]. With the reveal of its English name, it was memed as [[Franchise/MetalGear [[VideoGame/MetalGear Revolver Oshawott]], which then inspired "Solid Snivy" and "Tepig Boss", as seen [[http://www.halolz.com/2010/11/24/revolver-oshawatt/ here.]]

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Seinfeld Is Unfunny is now a disambiguation page.


* OnceOriginalNowCommon: A major driving force behind ''Black'' and ''White'' hype was that they strived to be [[DarkerAndEdgier "darker" and more "mature" games]] that were more inclusive of the PeripheryDemographic, during a time where ''Pokémon'' was largely seen as a "kiddy" franchise that was embarrassing for adults and teenagers to like. Since then, the franchise has become far more inclusive of teen and adult fans in the content of the games and other media[[note]]and arguably more effectively as well, given how successful ''VideoGame/PokemonGo'' was with that demographic[[/note]], as well as marketing, thus making this aspect of ''BW'' no longer seem groundbreaking.



* SeinfeldIsUnfunny:
** These games, along with their immediate predecessors ''[=HeartGold=]'' and ''[=SoulSilver=]'', were largely responsible for rekindling interest in the ''Pokémon'' franchise at the time, and were potentially considered the best games in the series overall. Several years later, they've largely fallen by the wayside ([[PopularityPolynomial though admittedly not quite so badly]]); the Unova Pokémon are no longer as loved and hyped as they once were and didn't get a playable character in ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBros'' to ensure their longevity, while later main games and ''VideoGame/PokemonGo'' were able to WinBackTheCrowd on an even larger scale. The sequels ''VideoGame/PokemonBlack2AndWhite2'' are still very popular with the core fandom, with their inclusion of older Pokémon and more expansive post-game being major advantages over their predecessors, but aside from dedicated hardcore Pokémon communities, one would be hard-pressed to find fans as fond of the original ''Black'' and ''White'' now as they were in 2010-2011.
** A major driving force behind ''Black'' and ''White'' hype was that they strived to be [[DarkerAndEdgier "darker" and more "mature" games]] that were more inclusive of the PeripheryDemographic, during a time where ''Pokémon'' was largely seen as a "kiddy" franchise that was embarrassing for adults and teenagers to like. Since then, the franchise has become far more inclusive of teen and adult fans in the content of the games and other media[[note]]and arguably more effectively as well, given how successful ''VideoGame/PokemonGo'' was with that demographic[[/note]], as well as marketing, thus making this aspect of ''BW'' no longer seem groundbreaking.

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as i've said before, fandom rivalry is for external conflicts and not internal ones; otherwise it'd just be broken base without the waiting period. right now it does read like a legitimate contested sequel entry so moving it there.


* ContestedSequel: The games have fallen into this over time, if not to the same polarizing extent as the 3DS entries. It all boils down to what one thinks about the relative importance and quality of the Pokédex, story, characters, region, and mechanics; the most common debate is whether the "unfamiliar" feel of the game and its Pokémon undermine it despite the memorable characters, story, and region. Notably, the games are among the ''least'' popular games in the series with more casual fans and gamers due to lacking older Pokémon, even if they aren't lambasted by that sector like they were when they first came out. Competitively, it is ''widely'' disliked, as the "Weather Wars" meta made for a very narrow playstyle that required almost every team to have Politoed, Ninetales, Tyranitar, or Hippowdon and a bunch of Pokémon that could make use of the weather they created, and the omnipresence of Dragons made the meta even more bland and formulaic, even after [[GameBreaker Garchomp]] was KickedUpstairs. Furthermore, basically all competitive players will agree that the games added nothing of value to the series from a mechanical standpoint (namely Triple, Rotation, and Launcher Battles, all of which would be removed by ''Sun and Moon''), and the Pokémon introduced were almost all too powerful or too weak; it was rare for a Pokémon from this generation to not either be completely worthless or obnoxious, and some of the most infamous high-tier Scrappies in the history of the series (namely Excadrill and Landorus Therian) were introduced here.

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* ContestedSequel: ContestedSequel:
**
The games have fallen into this over time, if not to the same polarizing extent as the 3DS entries. It all boils down to what one thinks about the relative importance and quality of the Pokédex, story, characters, region, and mechanics; the most common debate is whether the "unfamiliar" feel of the game and its Pokémon undermine it despite the memorable characters, story, and region. Notably, the games are among the ''least'' popular games in the series with more casual fans and gamers due to lacking older Pokémon, even if they aren't lambasted by that sector like they were when they first came out. Competitively, it is ''widely'' disliked, as the "Weather Wars" meta made for a very narrow playstyle that required almost every team to have Politoed, Ninetales, Tyranitar, or Hippowdon and a bunch of Pokémon that could make use of the weather they created, and the omnipresence of Dragons made the meta even more bland and formulaic, even after [[GameBreaker Garchomp]] was KickedUpstairs. Furthermore, basically all competitive players will agree that the games added nothing of value to the series from a mechanical standpoint (namely Triple, Rotation, and Launcher Battles, all of which would be removed by ''Sun and Moon''), and the Pokémon introduced were almost all too powerful or too weak; it was rare for a Pokémon from this generation to not either be completely worthless or obnoxious, and some of the most infamous high-tier Scrappies in the history of the series (namely Excadrill and Landorus Therian) were introduced here.here.
** They're particularly this to ''VideoGame/PokemonRedAndBlue'', due to ''Black and White'' functioning as a sort of soft-reset for the series. Immediately after their release, "genwunners"[[note]]fans who only like the first (sometimes second) generation of Pokémon and [[NostalgiaFilter hate later generations on principle]][[/note]] trashed the Generation V Pokémon and [[NostalgiaFilter compared them unfavorably to their childhood favorites]] to near-memetic levels, while fans of ''Black and White'' loved being able to experience the new Pokémon instead of needing to retread the original 151 all over again. This rivalry has only grown more intense as time went on, due to what is seen as [[PanderingTotheBase frequent tapping into Gen 1 nostalgia]] in future entries[[note]]Kanto starters in Generation 6, only Kanto Pokémon getting Alolan Forms in Generation 7, the mere existence of ''Pokémon Let's Go: Pikachu and Eevee'', and most of the Pokémon with Gigantamax versions in Generation 8 being either Kanto Pokémon or Galar newcomers[[/note]], and gradual shafting of the things that started in Generation 5 (as Triple, Rotation, and Launcher battles were gone by ''Sun and Moon'' as mentioned above), leaving fans of Unova and fans of Kanto to debate endlessly on what it means if anything at all. The rivalry is so pronounced[[note]]more than for other generations, likely due to the direct feuding involved[[/note]] that some Gen V fans, known derisively as "Unovabortions", have essentially become the "hardcore" equivalent of the largely "casual" genwunners; fans of this type are accused of overglorifying Gen V and its story, characters, and Pokémon designs, and of hating anything Kanto-related on principle and heavily deriding the "nostalgia pandering" in later games as if it were a legitimate design flaw, and have become enough of a stereotype in their own right that fans who call Gen V "the last great Pokémon games" are often accused of being contrarian hipsters who have an emotional aversion to Gen I and worship unpopular and obscure Pokémon species.



* FandomRivalry: Generation V has one in general with [[VideoGame/PokemonRedAndBlue Generation I]]. This rivalry started back when ''Pokémon Black'' and ''Pokémon White'' came out, mostly due to "genwunners"[[note]]fans who only like the first (sometimes second) generation of Pokémon and [[NostalgiaFilter hate later generations on principle]][[/note]] trashing the Generation V Pokémon and [[NostalgiaFilter comparing them unfavorably to their childhood favorites]] to near-memetic levels. Later, ''VideoGame/PokemonXAndY'' pacified the "genwunners" by [[PanderingTotheBase deliberately tapping into their Gen I nostalgia]]; however, this didn't stop Unova fans from still being bitter towards Gen I and its fanbase in general, since most things associated with Gen V are getting shafted during the Gen VI era, which they began to express more vocally due to criticism over ''XY''[='s=] game design. The rivalry is so pronounced[[note]]more than for other generations, likely due to the direct feuding involved[[/note]] that some Gen V fans, known derisively as "Unovabortions", have essentially become the "hardcore" equivalent of the largely "casual" genwunners; fans of this type are accused of overglorifying Gen V and its story, characters, and Pokémon designs, and of hating anything Kanto-related on principle and heavily deriding "nostalgia pandering" in later games[[note]]such as the 3DS entries, ''VideoGame/PokemonGo'', and ''VideoGame/PokemonLetsGoPikachuAndLetsGoEevee''[[/note]] as if it were a legitimate design flaw, and have become enough of a stereotype in their own right that fans who call Gen V "the last great Pokémon games" are often accused of being contrarian hipsters who have an emotional aversion to Gen I and worship unpopular and obscure Pokémon species.
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** If you don't have a way of one-shotting them, preferably by a fighting move, Audino can be really hard and annoying to kill midgame, especially with weaker Pokémon. Attract spam, very good defensive stats, Refresh, STAB Doubleslap, Secret Power (which, when used in tall grass, has a chance to put the target to sleep). Luckily they only appear in rustling grass, but this makes it more annoying to search for other Pok&eacutemon exclusive to rustling grass, since Audino is ''wildly'' more common than anything else you could find. [[PinataEnemy At least they provide a sizable amount of experience points]].

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** If you don't have a way of one-shotting them, preferably by a fighting move, Audino can be really hard and annoying to kill midgame, especially with weaker Pokémon. Attract spam, very good defensive stats, Refresh, STAB Doubleslap, Secret Power (which, when used in tall grass, has a chance to put the target to sleep). Luckily they only appear in rustling grass, but this makes it more annoying to search for other Pok&eacutemon Pokémon exclusive to rustling grass, since Audino is ''wildly'' more common than anything else you could find. [[PinataEnemy At least they provide a sizable amount of experience points]].
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** While Ghetsis' appearance does turn off some, [[spoiler:his adoptive son]] N is considered very attractive - being basically a {{bishonen}} and all.

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** While Ghetsis' appearance does turn off some, [[spoiler:his adoptive son]] N is considered very attractive - being basically a {{bishonen}} PrettyBoy and all.



** The female protagonist has been paired off with [[{{Bishonen}} N]], [[DistaffCounterpart Hilbert]], [[ChildhoodFriendRomance Cheren]], [[HoYay Bianca]], [[DualBoss the Subway Masters (especially Ingo)]], [[PowerTrio the Striaton triplets]], [[CastingAShadow Grimsley]] and [[CrackPairing Sawk]], among many others.

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** The female protagonist has been paired off with [[{{Bishonen}} [[PrettyBoy N]], [[DistaffCounterpart Hilbert]], [[ChildhoodFriendRomance Cheren]], [[HoYay Bianca]], [[DualBoss the Subway Masters (especially Ingo)]], [[PowerTrio the Striaton triplets]], [[CastingAShadow Grimsley]] and [[CrackPairing Sawk]], among many others.
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Only applies to individuals so whole Mon species are exempt, and are misuse as hate for gameplay not story. And only about disliked characters so disliked names of otherwise popular characters don't count.


* TheScrappy:
** You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who actually likes the elemental monkeys, who are widely hated due to their ugly designs and the fact that the game [[CharacterSelectForcing forces them on you]] for the first gym. In fact, in an official popularity poll conducted in 2016, [[https://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2016/06/17-1/unpopular-pokmon-launches-pr-campaign-to-improve-image?utm_source=community&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=pokemon Simisear placed dead last]]. It's probably no surprise that the trio hasn't been directly available in a core series game since ''VideoGame/PokemonXAndY'' in 2013...
** Even among the list of early-game rodents, the Watchog line is particularly disliked. This is mainly because of its strange stoner-eyes-on-a-chipmunk design that lacks the charm and/or cute appeal that other early-game rodents at least have going for them, as well as its status as a LowTierLetdown - even most other rodents have had decent niches or even special treatment (like regional variants or great Abilities) over the years, while Watchog has nearly nothing. Its Hidden Ability, Analytic, is useless on it, since it's too frail to afford to move last and make use of the power boost. Much like the elemental monkeys, Watchog has yet to make an appearance in the series since the sixth generation, and it's looking to stay that way.
** A variation: While Hilbert and Hilda are very much liked as characters, their English names are almost universally agreed to be terrible. It is more popular to refer to them as their Japanese names (Touya and Touko), their ''[[Manga/PokemonAdventures Adventures]]'' names (Black and White), or even with a PunnyName pair like Blair and Whitlea.
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* SlowPacedBeginning: The early game of Unova is both very linear and very repetitive. Up until you clear the first gym, you can only catch three different Pokémon, only one of which is anything to write home about. Those three Pokémon also happen to be ''incredibly'' common in the hands of other trainers, to the point that up until you face the Striaton Gym Leader, his elemental monkey and Cheren and Bianca's starters are literally the only thing you'll have encountered to not be one of the three. The CharacterSelectForcing with the monkeys doesn't help matters any. Even once you're clear of Striaton, it takes a while for encounter and enemy variety to open up (not helped by the second Gym being a Normal Gym), though gratefully, once you are clear of that Gym, things start improving in a hurry.
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** A variation: While Hilbert and Hilda are very much liked as characters, their English names are almost universally agreed to be terrible. It is more popular to refer to them as their Japanese names (Touya and Touko) or their ''[[Manga/PokemonAdventures Adventures]]'' names (Black and White).

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** A variation: While Hilbert and Hilda are very much liked as characters, their English names are almost universally agreed to be terrible. It is more popular to refer to them as their Japanese names (Touya and Touko) or Touko), their ''[[Manga/PokemonAdventures Adventures]]'' names (Black and White).White), or even with a PunnyName pair like Blair and Whitlea.
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** A variation: While Hilbert and Hilda are very much liked as characters, their English names are almost universally agreed to be stupid-sounding. It is more popular to refer to them as their Japanese names (Touya and Touko) or their ''[[Manga/PokemonAdventures Adventures]]'' names (Black and White).

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** A variation: While Hilbert and Hilda are very much liked as characters, their English names are almost universally agreed to be stupid-sounding.terrible. It is more popular to refer to them as their Japanese names (Touya and Touko) or their ''[[Manga/PokemonAdventures Adventures]]'' names (Black and White).
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** A variation: While Hilbert and Hilda are very much liked as protagonists, their English names are almost universally agreed to be stupid-sounding. It is more popular to refer to them as their Japanese names (Touya and Touko) or their ''[[Manga/PokemonAdventures Adventures]]'' names (Black and White).

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** A variation: While Hilbert and Hilda are very much liked as protagonists, characters, their English names are almost universally agreed to be stupid-sounding. It is more popular to refer to them as their Japanese names (Touya and Touko) or their ''[[Manga/PokemonAdventures Adventures]]'' names (Black and White).
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None


** A variation: While Hilbert and Hilda are very much liked as protagonists, their English names are almost universally agreed to be stupid-sounding. It is more popular to refer to them as their Japanese names (Touya and Touko), or their ''[[Manga/PokemonAdventures Adventures]]'' names (Black and White), or anything else.

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** A variation: While Hilbert and Hilda are very much liked as protagonists, their English names are almost universally agreed to be stupid-sounding. It is more popular to refer to them as their Japanese names (Touya and Touko), Touko) or their ''[[Manga/PokemonAdventures Adventures]]'' names (Black and White), or anything else.White).
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** A variation: While Hilbert and Hilda are very much liked as protagonists, their English names are almost universally agreed to be stupid-sounding. It is more popular to refer to them as their Japanese names (Touya and Touko), or their ''[[Manga/PokemonAdventures Adventures]]'' names (Black and White), or anything else.
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** Both Marshal and Alder became a hit with {{Bara}} fans pretty quickly.

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** Both Marshal and Alder became a hit with {{Bara}} fans pretty quickly.quickly, due to both of them having muscular, handsome designs and Alder being a fair bit more rugged-looking than most male characters in the franchise.

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