Chaos has already won
Think about it. They're gods of chaos, and what place is more chaotic than the Warhammer world? There's enough battle to sate Khorne, scheming for Tzeentch, hubris for Slaanesh and Despair for Nurgle as it is, and it's basically a giant hell already. All the fighting is just the four chaos gods revelling in their own chaos-ness and playing off the mortals against each other for kicks. They don't need any of the incursions or thier Everchosen to succeed, which is why they never do: they won the moment the gates collapsed.
- The only reason they haven´t won yet is because they´d like the Eternal War to stay eternal.
- This is all but completely canon, you know.
- Wanting the 'eternal war to stay eternal for kicks' is what the Chaos Gods want in 40K. Here, they don't bother that much in the Old World primarily due to the whole Great Game thing and because they already have daemon hordes conquering other worlds.
- 40K doesn't have the Great Game too?
The entire Warhammer world was subconsciously created by the Emperor.
After the Horus Heresy
and the Emperor's internment on the Throne, his reality-warping powers came into play and he created a world of symbolism with which he could consider his problems in physical form. Some of the ties are obvious- Orcs are Orks, the High/Dark Elves Eldar, Bretonians are Space Marines, but others are more representative of the universe and the distant past- Ogres represent entropy, Skaven represent the growing power of the Warp, and Lizardmen are the Old Ones. In this reality, the Emperor took the form of Karl Franz, and rules over this imaginary world while he ponders the nature of the Imperium.
- Fantasy Battle predates 40K.
The Horned Rat is a Chaos god, worshiped exclusively by Skaven.
The Horned Rat certainly exists, and his behaviour matches up quite closely with the other Chaos gods. I mean, making a tear in reality with his claw and eating his worshippers alive, we're not talking Buddha here. We even have a description of a human being acting as his agent, before any Skaven appeared. Therefore, the Horned Rat is a Chaos god who has created his own worshipers out of rats by magic, and no longer bothers to convert other races. He even has his own Mark of Chaos, a blessing that bounces attacks off his favoured characters and onto the wretched masses.
- This isn't fanon - the background is pretty clear that he's a Chaos God unique to the Skaven.
- And that it has a least one form of daemon devotees.
- It is also possible that The Horned Rat is a manifestation of Nurgle in the same way that Khaine is quite probably Khorne. Are the other two Chaos Gods running double lives in the world somewhere?
- Alternatively, the Horned Rat is Tzeentch: keeping his chosen alive to further his machinations definitely fits, and the clan politics that the Skaven perpetuate are definitely Tzeentchian in nature. Plus, Skaven have been known to try and topple societies from the inside as well as from the outside, again a classic Tzeentchian policy.
- The Horned Rat is neither Nurgle nor Tzeench, but is sortof halfway in between. This makes it about the opposite to the murder-obsessed-yet-with-oddly-sexy-minions Khaine (ie, Khorne/Slaanesh).
- What if the Horned Rat is both Tzeentch and Nurgle? Confused? Let me explain: the "mainstream" religion of the Horned Rat pretty much depicts him as a Tzeentch-style patron of scheming, backstabbing, treachery and general Magnificent Bastardry. The Skaven of Clan Pestilens, however, worship him as a patron of pestilence and plagues... something that only happened when they emigrated to Lustria centuries ago and promptly began to die of the hideous diseases and parasites endemic to that continent. In their fevered dreams, however, they came to worship a "new aspect" of the Horned Rat and by doing so were spared from their torturous deaths. Sound at all like the "conversion" of the Death Guard into Plague Marines? When they finally got kicked out of Lustria, the "orthodox" Skaven decried Clan Pestilens as heretics, and if they hadn't been so powerful (and had their bio-weapons to back them up), the clan would have been obliterated. Even now, they're still more or less outcast from mainstream Skaven society due to their "cult" status.
- The way they sometimes wipe out Skaven settlements and armies by accident doesn't help.
- Better yet: the Horned Rat is simply an amalgam of all the Chaos gods...a different form of Chaos Undivided, if you will.
- There are chaos gods outside the Big Four in Fantasy you know. He's just another one of them.
- Alternatively, the Horned Rat isn't a Chaos God but a particularly powerful Greater Daemon. This would explain why he has an unspecific powerbase and a unique personality, and although Gods are far too powerful to manifest on the Material Plane the Vermin Lord can do it because it's not quite on the same world-shattering Tier. Therefore the Council of Thirteen is so named for literal reasons rather than symbolic - the Horned Rat actually sits on the council occasionally, when the Vermin Lord is manifest for long enough.
- To add some credence to this theory- back in the old Realms of Chaos sourcebooks (can't remember if it was Slaves to Darkness or Lost and the Damned) there were rules for creating your own lesser Chaos god/Greater Daemon. The worked example ended up remarkably similar to the descriptions of the Horned Rat in both aspects (what he was "god" of), and in what his avatars looked like when manifest (almost identical to Vermin Lords). Hell, I'm pretty sure even his name (Neiglitz, IIRC) has been used in some material to refer to the Horned Rat. Considering the venerable Realms of Chaos books pre-date the establishment of the skaven race and culture, it's possible that the Horned Rat was established directly from that worked example.
- Of course, the same source also treated the God-Emperor of Mankind explicitly as the Fifth of the Big Four Chaos Gods. The fluff has moved on vastly since then.
Sigmar was a Primarch.
It was said that Sigmar came into the world through a twin-tailed comet. Several of the Space Marine Primarchs of Warhammer 40,000
also fell to their respective worlds from the sky when they were separated, and like Sigmar came to legendary stature.
- No, the comet simply heralded Sigmar's birth, as it has done for many great events. The destruction of Mordhiem and the beginning of the Storm of Chaos, for example. Sigmar had a mother and a father like everyone else. See the novel Heldenhammer for more details.
- Literally correct. Sigmar was once one of the un-accounted-for primarchs. This has since been ret-conned out of existence (several editions ago now. Warhammer and Warhammer 40000 no longer share a fictonal universe).
- That's what they say. Anyone who was around for the aftermath of Albion may disagree...
- I call Mutiverse on that! They may not be in the same universe, but they could be in the same multiverse linked by the Warp. In the 40K comic Bloodquest the Blood Angels fight beastmen in on a demon world.
- Just like orcs, goblins, men, elves, daemons, dwarfs, ogres, halflings, zoats, slann and old ones; beastmen appear in both Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 (and most of them are in Blood Bowl too, which is seperate again from the other two) but do not necessarily coexist.
- Chaos mutations do all kinds of crazy shit.
Sigmar is Sotek, the bloody snake-god of the Lizardmen.
As the wargame's army book for Lizardmen tells us, said deity's coming was heralded by a twin-tailed comet. Yeah, the same year when Sigmar was born. Surely there are some inconsistencies, but man, I can't get over this idea.
- They may be connected without being the same figure. The twin-tailed comet has been connected with several other events in the Old World, including the destruction of Mordheim (where the comet actually hit the city, but was still seen in later events) and heralding the rise of heroes who fought against chaos incursions. In the Empire these are seen as acts by the god Sigmar, but they may be simply wrong. This may represent some remaining influence of the Old Ones, or may be caused by something totally unknown in the setting. The birth of Sigmar and the rising of Sotek were during the same appearance, though.
- The manifestation of Sotek was simultaneous with the birth of Sigmar. If Sigmar is Sotek, that would imply he spent his early life as an illusion of a baby while beating the shit out of Skaven.
- Alternately... Sotek is Sigmar's father.
Warhammer is set on a world within the Eye of Terror.
It would explain all the chaos and mutation rife in the world, and in earlier incarnations of the game, you could use 40K weapons and items - possibly left by Chaos Marines.
- If I recall, this was proven... in older editions. But was cut as it kinda ruins the whole 'dramatic battles for the fate of the world!' if it's just taking place on a planet basically sitting there to be used for fun by the fickle fates of Chaos.
- The Great Maw is actually of Tyranid origin and has connected the Ogres to the Hive Mind in such a way that they want to consume the world to make way for their unknown overseers.
- I swear there is something that blatantly states Warhammer takes place on a Feudal World but I cannot remember where it is.
- The Liber Chaotica (set in the warhammer world) describes and shows a demon weapon which is very obviosly a chainsword and theres lots other 40k stuff referenced.
- Those sections were written before the split between Fantasy and 40K were finalized.
The Warhammer world is a parallel universe to both Earth and the Discworld
The Earth connection is pretty much confirmed by the presence of Genevieve Dieudonne on two Earths (the "Anno Dracula" universe and the "Diogenes Club" universe) [not to mention the shape of the continents]. For the Disc connection see the GURPS/WFRP adventure Meals on Wheels
, which portrays the same events happening in both worlds. The adventure equates Altdorf to Ankh-Morpork, with Filthy Harald Kleindeinst paralleling Commander Vimes and Leonardo da Miragliano paralleling Leonard of Quirm. (Yes, they're both based on Earth figures originally, but surely that only proves the Warhammer world follows the Theory of Narrative Causality
- Filthy Harold is a direct expy of Dirty Harry, with the exact same character traits and back story. Plus the name, of course.
- And so, at least in part, is Sam Vimes. "This is Lord Mountjoy Quickfang Winterforth IV, the hottest dragon in the city. It could burn your head clean off. Do you feel lucky?"
- Hell, The Night Watch's motto is "Fabricati Diem, Pvnc".
- I'm not sure Genevieve is canon any more. Vampires are a lot less tolerated and a LOT meaner in modern editions.
- IIRC, she still is to some extent; I think it's mentionned or implied in the RPG sourcebook on vampires that she's of the Lahmia bloodline, and that as a Friendly Neighborhood Vampire (probably the only one in the entire setting), the other vamps use her as an Unwitting Pawn to garner good publicity. It's all very cynical, appropriately enough for Warhammer.
- Additional complication; as per GURPS Discworld and GURPS Infinite Worlds, the Disc is part of an entirely different game company's multiverse...
There is a major power opposed to Chaos that has not yet been revealed
Sotek and Sigmar came to be at the same time. Both came to be saviors of the races that now worship them as their prime gods when those races were at the cusp of extinction (the Lizardmen were being overrun by the Skaven, humans would never have formed lasting nations if Sigmar had not united them and led them against a huge Waaagh!). It is these races that have been largely responsible for beating Chaos back for the last 2500 years, as the Elves and Dwarves decline.
A few possibilities:
A) Tzeench planned it for some unknown reason, no evidence except for who Tzeench is.
B) The Old Ones still have some presence or influence on events, or this is some safeguard in place in case they fall. The coming of Sotrek at least was predicted in the plates they left behind.
C) A minor Chaos god, possibly of stubbornness or something similar.
D) A new kind of god. In addition to the Chaos gods and the two already discussed, the setting already has the Elvish gods that they created themselves, the non-Sigmar Human gods, the other Lizardmen gods/ Old Ones, and the Dwarf ancestor gods. Sigmar's godhood is unique, but he answers prayers. There may be a new kind of god that is really answering them, and is sending Sigmar back again and again as it's champion.
- You missed one: the powers of Law. Some editions of WFRP mention gods of law (although this troper is going on something seen in a bookshop five years ago, since he didn't have the money to buy the main rulebook; help from any WFRP players would be appreciated). One of the Konrad novels features a prophet who used to be a freakin' Daemon but somehow managed to stop. The Powers of Law could have been The Beings Behind The Old Ones.
- White Dwarf once released an article detailing conversions for an Army of Law using the Chaos models and army list. They're at least semi-canon.
- They do exist, but are not as well known as Chaos. They and their followers are regarded with distrust by the Empire, but this being Warhammer, one, they deserve that reputation, and two, not making worship of them punishable by death is very benevolent by their standards. They are Alluminas, a Eldritch Abomination that rules over light, Arianka, a goddess locked in a crystal tomb by the Gods of Chaos, and Solkan the Avenger, who does exactly what his name suggests. The Daemon Prophet can possibly be a follower of them (though I didn't read that book), since the Gods of Law can be described as daemons of the patterns within randomness. All gotten from here. Sadly, the only one that is remembered is Solkan, who is occasionally mentioned in the novels.
- Not to split hairs, but Sigmar is only worshiped within the Empire, and even then he is subordinate to Ulric and Taal in the north.
The Dark Elf god Khaine is Khorne
Four main bits of evidence: they sound the same, they're both patrons of killing, they both favour their worshippers being bloody to the elbows, and the Witch Elves (Khaine fanatics) have as their banner icon a very slightly elfish version of the mark of Khorne
- See above, Khaine is likely a mix of Khorne and Slaanesh.
- I like to think of Khaine being the god of sadism, and Khorne being mindless rage and murder. Big difference.
- Personally, I've always considered Ulric to be an aspect of Khorne. Primarily due to the facts that both of them are associated with wolves, berserker rage and martial honour.
Male Bretonnian children taken by the Wood Elves become Green Knights.
Wood Elf magic is responsible for the Blessing of the Lady; Wood Elves steal children, and train the girls to become Damsels (the most powerful one is even called the Fey
Enchantress) but no-one knows what happens to the males. Furthermore, no-one knows where the Green Knight comes from, he just shows up to defend places sacred to the Lady
- so maybe "he" is really a Green Knight Corps
of Wood Elf Tyke Bombs
. They're dressed as Bretonnian knights because the Elves want the xenophobic Brets to revere them as a mythical chivalric figure - the tendency of knights to identify each other by heraldry and the Green Knight's refusal to remove his helmet
combine to create the legend of an omnipresent unkillable being.
* So to conclude, the Green Knight is actually The Chosen Many Faceless Fair Folk Genius Loci Knight Errant Tyke Bombs
with Legacy Immortality
. Enough tropes for ya?
- A few points: First of all, the Wood Elves might be responsible for the Blessing of the Lady. Or she might actually be a goddess. Or she might a manifestation of the land of Bretonnia similar to the Forest Spirits of Athel Loren, but unconnected to them. Second, the children trained to become Damsels are not kidnapped by Wood Elves. They are visited by the Fay Enchantress, who takes them away with her to be trained (the parents are aware and consider this a great honor).
- Incorrect; while the idea that the Wood Elves are behind the Lady is just a theory, it's a canon fact, and known In-Universe, that it's the Wood Elves who kidnap all children who develop magical powers, with the girls later showing up as Damsels of the Lady and the boys never appearing again.
There is a grand total of one 40K immigrant in WFB, and that is Grombrindal
The latest model has him in a spacesuit
. He's obviously the last of the Squats...sorry, I mean the squa
Warpstone is a kind of Chaos-infused hard cheese
The moon is made of it and rats like to eat it. QED.
Combined with Branston Pickle
between two slices of Dwarf Battle Bread
, it makes a sandwich capable of bringing about Ragnarok.
- Probably not, since Discworld dwarfs don't actually eat dwarf bread. It might make a formidable weapon, though. And surely you mean "Branston Pickle spread onto No More Heroes", right?
Sotek is Khorne
With the help of Slaanesh and Tzeentch, Khorne has managed to get the unwitting Lizardmen under his control, and with every sacrifice they make he gets stronger. It doesn't help that both of the gods demand blood and sacrifice, so the Lizardmen have had trouble telling them apart.
- Cool, but unlikely, the Slann are pretty good at telling Chaos from a mile away... well, usually.
The Wood Elves are not responsible for the Blessing of the Lady
A lowly Bretonnian Knight Errant - a completely normal human man with a little military training - can get potent magical protection simply by praying, yet even the oldest and most skilled Wood Elves can't give themselves such protection without magical items. Whoever is protecting the Bretonnians seems to be vastly more powerful than the Asrai themselves.
- That assumes the prayer itself is what invokes the protection, rather than just activating an existing spell.
- The idea that "the Wood Elves are behind the Lady of the Lake" is just one of many theories about the Lady raised in the source material. People treating a single theory as holy writ is a major pet peeve of this troper.
- Well... let's look through the facts as given in Knights of the Grail and the rest of WHFRP: 1) The fey of Athel Loren are very definitely Wood Elves, as is the Fey Enchantress. 2) The Damsels of the Lady are wizards trained by Wood Elves. 3.) There is quite a lot more magic in Warhammer than those six times eight spells given in the rule book (yes, even more than those additional lores from the army books), so the Blessing of the Lady as a spell isn't quite improbable, just as there might be a Chaos Barbarian using a bow somewhere in the world. With these considerations, I think it's more probable than not that the Wood Elves are behind the Lady than not.
- How about we Take a Third Option? The Wood Elves are making sure the humans gain the Blessing, but they're using a power not their own; the Lady is something else entirely that the elves simply take advantage of.
- Perhaps it is not straight spell by the Wood Elves, but something in between the elves and the spirits of Athel Loren, like, a blessing by forest spirits persuaded to do so by the Queen of Wood Elves, or whatever.
- Fay Enchantress, not Fey. Going by the Bretonnian book, the Bretonnians use "Fey" to refer specifically to the Wood Elves, and "Fay" to refer to spirit-stuff in general. That said, the Enchantress is probably (not definitely) a Wood Elf, if only going by her Elven statline. Thus, the Wood Elves might be the ones training the damsels, although the Prophetesses of the Lady have access to magic (the Lore of Heavens) that even the greatest Wood Elf wizards do not. Furthermore, the fact that the Wood Elves do not themselves use anything like the Blessing is a pretty strong indicator that they aren't the ones doing it.
- Taking a fourth option and guessing that it is a combination of all of the above. The original religion was created by the wood elves when the elf queen Ariel contacted a land spirit (perhaps an actual lake spitit) and convinced it to empower a local warlord, Gilles, so he could unite the lands and defeat the orcs that threatened the elves. This worked and afterwards Ariel then "appointed" an elven mage under her to oversee the bretonnians and keep them under control. (I would like to point out that I put quotes because the word appointed is in the codex. The Enchantress was appointed, by someone, to oversee the Bretonnians. Also this quote was in the Wood elf codex not the Bretonnia one, make of that what you will). To help in this the Fey Enchantress takes children from the lands with magical abilities. The girls are trained to fight and the boys are keep as servents (It is said in the wood elf codex that boys from the lands around the forest are taken and serve the elves their). This is done for two reasons; first to keep them from getting to powerful (the damsels can only go up to level 2 when the Enchantress is level 4) and two to keep them under control and not learn to much. To answer to how the blessing of the lady is more powerful then anything the wood elves have is simply that it is. After the 1500 years the people of the kingdom (potentially millions over the years) have been worshiping this lake spirit it has grown in power. So in the end the wood elves control the religion but the lady is a power both outside and possibly greater then them.
- Taking a fifth option: The Lady of The Lake was originally a Wood Elf ploy, but has since escaped their control. Because of the influence of Chaos and all, it's implied that the gods of the Warhammer setting run on Clap Your Hands If You Believe, so maybe Gilles and his friends were originally enchanted with Woof Elf magic, but as the Brettonians as a people began to believe in this new mysterious goddess of chivalry their faith created an echo in the Realm of Chaos, and now she really does exist and have their best interests at heart.
- With the release of the 8th edition Wood Elves Army Book it seems that they have gone away from the idea that the wood elves are responsible for the blessing and the religion. (Spoilers) It is directly stated (and remember that this is from the wood elves perspective) that the spirit known as the lady of the lake, or Corrigyn Daughter of Mists as she is known to Ariel, lives on a mountain called Silverspire and that she gave Gilles power without any of them noticing. Not only that but not long before the year 2522 Drycha allegedly kidnapped the Fay enchantress and, rather pissed, The lady made Ariel come to answer for what happened, they fought for three days, and things were settled in the end. So I think it would be right to say that it has been firmly established that the lady and the wood elves are now completely separate.
Nagash (and by extension all Necromancers) is an unwitting pawn of the Powers of Law
Chaos has as much to fear from the undead overrunning the world as anyone, maybe more. There would be no more war, lust, disease or hope - only a fixed, unchanging immortality where nothing will ever grow or change.
- So that's why Harry the Hammer keeps killing the undead instead of joining the Chaos Hordes when they march.
The Warhammer world is a world in the 40k galaxy
within the eye of terror
There were too many connections between the two universes to say that they were completely separate. However, the world was not exactly an average world either. This is because the Warhammer world was located smack-dab in the middle of the Eye of Terror, the influence of the warp allowed the more fantasy elements in the world to exist. The power of Chaos held supreme in the world (Chaos wastelands, the Skaven) with opposing factions struggling to keep them at bay. This also explains why many of the 40k races and elements managed to exist in one world.
- or the reason so many elements of 40K exists is because 40K started out as "Warhammer In Space"
- This guess was already made further up on the page. Read before you post.