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redirected from Main.AvatarTheLastAirbenderDiscussion Kenb215: Changed the paragraph: ...Eastern religion and mythology, and the inclusion of material deemed almost universally "inappropriate" or "too mature" for children's entertainment, such as aggressive battles and on-screen deaths,... The not for children thing seems somewhat out of place, considering the show's target demographic is boys, 6-14.Are there no Trope Namers from this series? Kenb215: Tasty Gold henke37: What happened to the Page Image? They Changed It Now It Sucks. The old one was excellent and the current one is slightly jagged from resizing and doesn't even have a too good actual content in my opinion. I mean, it's too dark, Aang looks well, strange, and the overall hair style and posing isn't good. Bring the old one back! Anonymous: This has been bothering me for a while, but I thought I'd run it by other people first before randomly editing. I don't think the example of It Is Always Spring is correct. It's been stated several times that the first book, water, is winter, the second book, earth, is spring, and the third book, fire, is summer. Each season is a different season, as it were. Anyway, I was just wondering if that example really belongs there. Lale: I know; it's actually Traveling At The Speed Of Plot, but when I tried to get it removed in the past, I was unsuccessful. Kenb215: The point is, well, the page quote. They go from the southern hemisphere, where it's winter, to the northern hemisphere, where it's still winter instead of the expected summer. The season doesn't change. It sort of fits, although it's not a normal example. Lale: I thought that, too — that's why I added Avatar to that page. But I didn't read the trope all the way through. It Is Always Spring actually has nothing to do with seasons never changing for the sake of the speed of the plot; it's artists drawing the season as spring by default for the sake fo simplicity. "It is always spring" is shorthhand for "it is always a sunny but cool season where it's not too hot or too cold to require wardrobe or landscape changes." Inappropriately timed passing of seasons is literally Traveling At The Speed Of Plot. Gus: This sentence:
Airbud: What does the article mean by "Eastern censorship"? Response: Not overly censored like most animation in the west. Ex: the Never Say Die thing again. Notice how the characters on the show have yet to utter something along the lines of "...to another dimension." Ununnilium: I don't see what the point of adding "Episode" at the end of things is. Unnamed Person at 146.145.215.131: I noticed each major character on Neon Genesis Evangelion has their own page because they each so thoroughly fit/are associated with a vast myriad of tropes. Since that's the case with this show's major characters, too, would such a set-up be appropriate for them? Just look how many times Zuko's name appears next to a character trope. Looney Toons: That was something that was someone — I forget who now — did in the wake of my original article. There was no planning or prior discussion, they just did it because they felt it needed doing, and no one objected afterwards. If you have similar feelings about this page, by all means go right ahead and do it. Seth: After staring to watch the series (And a big thanks to the anon editor of this page for getting me interested in it) I'm not sure the characters quite deserve their own pages since they can all be wrapped up with three or four tropes (Liek they already have been under the five man band bit, see). Not to say they aren't original most characters from other shows can be summed up in one. Seth: Cleared away six or so examples that weren't. Things like Finger Lickin Evil don't refer to villains who look at their nails when bored but specifically women with cats claw weapons. And First Girl Wins which doesnt come into it since aside from one single ep comic relief character there is no-one else fighting for his affections (And the relationship with katara seems more natural than most the examples of that trope, 2 guys one girl travel together, the girl is related to one, relationship forms between her and the other guy, seems just normal) Stuff like that, a lot of the examples here were really reaching beyond bounds to make the show look better, Not that it isn't good but its been annoying me since i watched the series how many extra tropes this page had. Tulling: "Nickelodeon's genius combination of Eastern art and Western writing, Eastern (lack of) censorship and Western characters." I must admit a personal dislike to terms like Eastern and Western because they are so vague and are often used in inappropriate and contradictory ways. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to be more specific: If "Eastern art" means anime-style (my guess, not having seen this), wouldn't it be better to simply specify that? If this cartoon is produced in the USA (which I presume), wouldn't "american writing" or somesuch be more appropriate than "Western writing"? Similarly for "The show is known for its references to Eastern religion and mythology..." (East of what exactly?) - why not specify which religions and mythologies it references? Ununnilium: It wouldn't flow nearly as well, IMHO. I think this perfectly encapsulates the way the show works; it's an attempt to fuse "Eastern" cultural tropes (not just Japanese, but East Asian in general) with "Western" ones (similarly, not just American; they're common to most of Western Europe and countries with traditional links to it), with a deeper understanding than you'd find in, say, Totally Spies. Sure, you *could* say "it has anime-style art except not really", but it wouldn't work that well. Seth: I think the lead in is quite well written, and no small amount of discussion and tweaking went into making it that way (Read rest of discussion). As Unu said it encapsulates many eastern (The different races take inspiration from Japan, China, Tibet and others) and western tropes mixed (European dragons and personality types, a lot of obviously american influence). If it were a mix of japanese and american we would have put it but it tries to include everyone (The north water tribe have a lot of Inuit traits for example). Tulling: Well, in that case I suppose it works reasonably well as a kind of shorthand. Wiki: Mind if I change "Nickelodean's genius combination...." and replace with the co-creators? After all, they do just show it. Seth: I dont have an objection. Lale: Took out the paragraph on Prince Zuko because it's redundant; the same information can be found in the list. Took out Fan Art because it's overkill; most shows with a significant fan following have it, along with Fan Fics and Fan Vids. Wiki: Though it was pretty informative, don't have much of a problem with the Zuko deletion. I'd keep the Fanart though, as its particularly noteable in the series and the page itself wasn't created for nothin. Lale: Why was the Chekhovs Gun line deleted? The water was "introduced conspicuously" and "became very important later on." Seth: That was a mistake i misread the line i thought it meant her pendant from the earlier episodes. Lale: Nope, that's on the Mac Guffin page. Seth: Wiki the Gender Bender thing isn't an example, No character switches gender, yet Aangs past lives were women but that does not constitute a Gender Bender. Wiki: I'm just going with the description "Simply put, through no fault of their own the main character has completely changed gender physically, usually through magic or Phlebotinum. This may be a one-time change, or they'll jump the gender line often, multiple times in a single episode even" and the fact that he turned into a woman on a least one occasion, but m'kay. Oh and I changed the picture, hope its alright. Just seems more season 2-ish, or relevent or whatever. Seth: The new picture works, i got the old one from a google search before i had seen the series. Just needed something to fill the space and bring it up to template. Jordan: I was thinking about the characters of Mai and Ty Lee and was wondering if they fell under the category of either punch-clock villains or psychos for hire- they sort of seem an odd combination of the two. Lale: Ty Lee was threatened into service, Mai just doesn't care about anything including whatever she's doing, but neither of them is in it for the joy of killing or claims to be "just doing their jobs." They're part of a trio of traveling friends who just happen to be villains. Seth: Yeah Power Trio pretty much has them covered with the other tropes that they are already under. (New series airs soon) Jordan: Thanks, that makes sense. I was leaning more toward punch-clock villains in the sense that they don't seem to bear a grudge against the heroes nor to be motivated by patriotism for the Fire Nation. As you say, it is a bit unusual that they are childhood friends of the villain and motivated mostly by that. Seth The third season has been announced for July 14, 2007 - just in case anyone was wondering. Lale: Great. I'll be in France :( Seth: Well if you miss it there are sure to be Some Nice People  who will upload it for online viewing. And i'm sure this series will be bit-torrented since the others were so popular.
Seth: Turns out that was a hoax date added to wikipedia - he real date has been announced Here as sept 21st
Morgan Wick: Never Trust Wikipedia. Completely, anyway. Or rather, trust Wikipedia if and only if it has a little [1] or other number in brackets next to the claim. If it doesn't, or if the applicable [1] (which could be at the end of a paragraph) doesn't actually include the info, slap a fact on it.
Rogue 7: Anyone else find it ironic that the 2nd half of season three started exactly a year later?
guest: can anyone give me an instance in Avatar that qualifies as an ass-kicking pose? Wiki: Yo  ◊
that same guest: thank you!
Lale: What Arc Words, whoever-you-are?
Not the same random complete istranger, but I am a random complete stanger. Anyway, well there's "Everything is connected". Stated by Aang in the swamp then recited during a critical point during a at the finale. The series as a whole kinda has a character-driven feel that implies that all these different character's destinies are intertwined somehow. Appa's Lost Days being a prime example. Figures that in an SFX interview, Mike and Bryan stated that aside from anime, they were also influenced by the storytelling of 24 and Lost
Lale: I've seen a lot of Shout Outs, but what's the Internal Homage? Oh there's plenty of those. For the most obvious examples, just use the intro as reference. For example, that scene with Roku bending all four elements seen in the 2007 comic con video. Or that one scene from the same video where Zuko puts on a hood parellels what his mother did when she left him. Lale: What are the Pink Bunny Slippers? Wiki: See now this one I honestly think you can get on your own. Lale: Unless it's about how much Zuko and Mai resemble Shinji Ikari and Rei Ayanami, no. Seth: I love the watchlist feature. It allows me to grab these so much faster. Wiki: So happy for ya. But you guys give up so easily. Kinda weird in this case as someone brings it up bout every five minutes. Eh well, two words: Star Wars. Seth: Mark Hamil voices Ozai? Mark Hamil voices every animated Evil Overlord. There are no hidden brother sister relationships (And no confirmed father son ones, just heavily speculated). The force has little relation to bending and Anikin skywalker was not a spirit medium who could summon tornadoes. Aside from the casting of Mark Hamil i really can't think of any similarities. Oh and doomed hometown, but they are covered in very different ways. Lale: George Lucas deliberately followed The Heros Journey to the letter. The Heros Journey is a very basic storytelling tool that appears almost everywhere, including here. This doesn't deliberately resemble Star Wars; both — among many to all others — follow the same formula. While I was guessing, I was thinking of more glaring coincidences: i.e. Zuko being Dante Basco's second role as a great swordsman with father issues who's had bad luck with pirates, or the not one, not two, not three, but four voice actors in common (in similar roles, nonetheless) with American Dragon Jake Long. I guess there are actually many opportunities for Pink Bunny Slippers on this show, just not used. Wiki: For Seth, I didn't say anything about the Voice casting, which in itself has little to do with Pink Bunny Slippers. And we all know Mark Hamill doesn't voice every single animated Evil Overlord. I take it that this exaggaration thing I keep hearing about. Personally, I kinda wish they had gone with Perlman. That aside, I myself wasn't all that impressed whenever someone brought up the gratutious Star Wars parallel. Much like you did, I stated that they were just following the typical formula that had been laid out long before Lucas was even a person. Still, there are some things ya just can't ignore. The finale pretty much echoed the franchise. Aang/Lucas are receiving mentor from Yoda/Pathik to learn how to use Avatar Spirit/the force (bear with me there, not the biggest fan). Then suddenly they have a vision of their friends in danger and leave prematurely. They go over to save the day, end up gettin their asses handed to them. The season/episode ends on a downer with the antagonists being victorious, in complete contrast to the previous finale/episode. All in all, leads to a "yes I know what this looks like" scenario. Surem, Star Wars writing is pretty generic, okay really generic, but its still there. Plus the creators express that they're pretty big fans of it, but the again, who isn't? I actually really hope the show doesn't follow the formula to a tack, or whatever. At this point, it all just seems really redudant. Huh, trope. Lale: This sounds more like something I brought up long ago — Star Wars Is Everywhere. Either every show references it at some point, or people see references to it at some point. I've never seen The Empire Strikes Back and din't make the connection until people started talking about it afterwards. Kissing Kate: Oh hey, don't forget about all that stuff that went down "The Deserter." That scene with Zhao, Jeong Jeong, and Aang mirrored episode 4 so freakishly well. Deceptive Disciple and now powerful commanding officer Anak-er-Darth Vader/Admiral Zhao confronts his old master and gloats how much better off he is now as a result of abandoning their tutelage. Aang/Luke shows up on the scene for the rescue. Jeong Jeong/Obi Wan gives a glance at Aang/Luke, smiles slyly, and allows himself to be attacked, disappearing without a trace in the process. They really went in for the kill with the "glance and smile" bit. Didn't catch it myself until just now. Lale: But... the fact that it's a trope says it's not something unique to Star Wars that should automatically be considered a Homage. Zuko's a troubled teen who wants the approval of his Evil Overlord father and is frequently paired with the Emotionless Girl — similar to but I doubt Inspired By Neon Genesis Evangelion. Wiki: So ya didn't watch it, that explains quite a bit. Though to be honest I've never actually managed to sit through a whole Star Wars movie. Stuff like Star Wars, you can pick up almost everything through It Was His Sled. Anyway when I said "trope" at the very end, I was refering to the fact that redundancy is the whole point of this site wiki thing. That thing "The Deserter" just lays it in. Had been wondering for the longest time what the hell he was smiling about. Watch the Vader/Obi Wan/Luke clip, then watch the Zhao/Jeong Jeong/Aang scene. Once you see it, you'll get it right away. Also heard somewhere that they were inspired by NGE, but even if it was true, while still good and all, the show's pretty far off from that for most. Then again, ya really gotta consider the circumstances and junk. Lale: I've read that Deserter-New Hope & CoD-Empire parallel so many times, I don't have to see the movie to get the similarity. I just think, w/ no in-show acknowledgement, the trope is a stretch. Wiki: That's pretty much what I've been sayin. Haven't seen the whole movie myself but its still obvious. You kinda lost me at that last part, but the most I can say is that watching the two scenes really helps it sink in. Lale: Re-worded it. Wiki: Not really that much of a stretch. It looks stretchy when its being written out like this, and for me I'm mostly explainin it like this cause ya haven't seen it. Now that NGE thing, that's kindof a stretch as shows are filled with Evil Overlord fathers, troubled teens, usually white, and emotionless girls. Whereas that scenerio that went down in "The Deserter" is incredibly dead-on. But eh, I'm running out of debate juice, and may have even forgetten what it is I wanted to do. Somethin bout flip flops. Seth: I would contest Wangst - yes there is some angst in the story but it is played well and isn't that whiny. The Smite Me Oh Mighty Smiter moment was a dramatic metamorphosis for his character, it was a little melodramatic but not wangst. Lale: I've actually seen the "dramatic overkill" accusation directed more towards Aang in Season 2, albeit probably unfairly — angst simply works better for the scarred teenaged Anti Hero than the Kid Hero who likes penguin sledding. Seth: The first episode of book 3 aired today, everyone keep their eyes on this page. Lale: You can't tell if Zuko's a Tragic Hero yet. Tragic Heroes aren't just heroes who fail because of their own flaws and die as a result. There are two more key points: they learn something or or something about them changes, and their death serves some greater good for someone else besides them. Arthur Miller forgot these two points when writing the character of Wlly Loman in Death of a Salesman and insisted for years that he was a Tragic Hero before consenting. Willy Loman is a pathetic hero, one who fails because of their own flaws like a Tragic Hero but doesn't learn anything, and nothing is changed for the better for anyone else either. I wouldn't call Zuko a pathetic hero, though, because he's a villain. The Defenestrator: Why was the Bellisarios Maxim example deleted? Lale: Moved to It Is Always Spring. Seems to fit better there. H. Torrance Griffin: If anyone has more patience than I, here is a cache for updating.
Ack Sed: I reckon this is the unofficial cartoon of TV Tropes. Because,no lie,when I want to find out if there's a new episode out,I just come here to see if anyone's added to or edited the entries. Kenb215: Pulled out a few that I don't think actually fit; shown below. Anyone disagree?
That Other 1 Dude: Which do you think better qualifies as a Tear Jerker: the end of "The Tale of Iroh" or Jet's death? Seth *Cough* The Forums are a better place for questions like that
Wiki: Either that or find yourself a nice fanny, Subjective Trope. We seem to have quite a few of those around nowadays. Eh. But to answer the question, Iroh's/Mako's dedication literally made me tear, which for reasons I'd rather not get into, ain't all that easy. Suffice to say, I had trouble taking Jet's death seriously. Idaknow, around that time I was getting into/going back to more mature-toned anime so to watch such expressive and artistically unbridled stuff like that and then come back and watch such a conspiciously albeit necessarily restrained/forced sequence was kinda off for me. But as said before, subjective and junk like this really is better on a nice forum. Lookin back, I don't even know why we bothered putting those up.
That Other 1 Dude: Yes, because there are no topic that exist just for enjoyment, because this is Serious Business.
Wiki: Damn straight. I really hope you're not being sarcastic. Don't know why but ya tend to run into that quite a bit in places like this.
Rogue 7: Saw that someone put up "Fantasy Counterpart Culture" And I've got some issues with it. Airbenders are not Mongolians as near as I can tell- they seem to be all buddhists, particularly the buddhists of Tibet (which is what waterbenders are listed as.) I find waterbenders to be far closer to the inuit in terms of visual design. Earth/China and Fire/Japan I agree with, though. greatpenguin: Does anyone else think that Ozai will end up being displaced from his Big Bad status and replaced with Azula? She's had waaaay more character development and has proven herself at least as good, if not better, at being a Magnificent Bastard. That Other 1 Dude: We'll just wait and see, though she does seem to be much more loyal then you'd expect (possibly real loyalty, possibly she just knows she can't run an entire country) That Other 1 Dude: Pending: Is there really a point in putting "The Great Divide" in Dis Continuity? I've check several ranking of it, and the average the average score is really just mediocre at worse. Most of all, the episode has no real impact on the series as a whole, so it wouldn't even matter if it didn't exist. Lale: You're right . It's actually Canon Dis Continuity.
Rogue 7: Just tossing around those clips from NYCC pretty casually, eh Lale? I think with what we've seen there "This the kind of wacky, time-wasting nonsense I've been missing!"- pretty much describing this one as filler, along with all his other things, puts him in this trope. Incidentally, I think that that line should be the page quote for Filler.
Lale: It's not my fault everything I see makes me think of where it fits on TV Tropes.
Rogue 7: Except that this episode looks to be the single most meta thing short of Order Of The Stick. I was in stitches the entire time from all the self-parody going on.
Lale: Would this be Who Would Want To Watch Us?
Rogue 7: Perhaps. Stylistic Suck also applies, I think, as does Character Exaggeration. I think that this is going to be TV Tropes' favorite episode.
Gloating Swine: It certainly says something about the series that the worst crime an episode commits is being Filler, and it gets landed in Dis Continuity...
Lale: (Actually, the great crime the discontinued(?) episode committed was no Zuko) But seriously... "The Runaway" is as filler as it gets, but it's nothing like "The Great Divide." TGD isn't hated for being filler but for being Anvilicious about one of the most cliched, overly done Aesops and breaking said Aesop on top of it since the conflict is only resolved through an elaborate lie. Plus, it was just boring. Plus, Avatar subtley deals with the subject of racism much more realistically in almost every episode anyway.
That Other 1 Dude: I don't want to watch the spoilered episode but what does it say about The Great Divide? Just saying something is Filler, and noting that it was kind dumb in hindsight does not make it Canon Discontinuity. (That's also not a Broken Aesop, it's a Spoof Aesop or not one at all). I feel Dis Continuity is getting really overused, and we have people declaring it on an episode that most people I've meant found at worst mediocre. I mean something used to have to be absolutely horrendous or cause something horrible to happen for the series as a whole to qualify, but now everyone just throws it on whatever possibly just a very small number of people consider very bad.
Kenb215: It's just a joke, they didn't actually discard it.
That Other 1 Dude: That too.
Rogue 7: I'd argue that it counts. Basically, the episode's a humorous recap of the series, set as a play. The actors come to the great divide, and the actor playing Sokka remarks "eh, let's keep flying." I call it Canon Discontinuity.
Lale: ^ My thoughts exactly. I don't know anything about how overused regular Dis Continuity is, but the writers acknowledging in the show that the fans hate the episode so much they wish it hadn't happened sounds like Canon Dis Continuity to me.
Kenb215: I thought Canon Discontinuity was for when the episode/movie is officially written out of canon, that is, the event is considered to have never happened. I don't think the writers decided to change it so the Gaang never helped those two tribes from "The Great Divide".
That Other 1 Dude: YES! That's exactly the point. Just admitting an episode was bad does not make it Canon Discontinuity. Unlike some people, they're not going to throw Dis Continuity around on everything they dislike, especially when there's so little point in it.
Lale: But they agree it should never happened.
That Other 1 Dude: Whatever, but more importantly they're aren't not saying actually didn't happen, so it's not an example.
Charred Knight: IT WAS A JOKE! YOU KNOW FUNNY HAHAHA! My god, can you not understand humor? It was joke about how SOME people didn't like it, and how it was simply Filler and completely unimportant. They are not saying that it did not exist, the episode in question is most likely a silly filler episode meant as something for the fans, they put in a joke that was for the fans. STOP TAKING EVERYTHING LITERAL!
Lale: The debate of how all five members of the Gaang fit elements of The Chick role is on The Chick page. Since the true answer is the trope is simply averted here, let's contain that to one place. Kenb215: I tried cleaning the page up a bit, although it doesn't look any clearer. Removed the following:
Rogue 7: 04/26/2008- Boiling Rock's been leaked. Just seen it. Gloating Swine: Updated the Fantasy Counterpart Culture entry. The Fire Nation doesn't resemble Japan very much at all, it's much more like earlier Imperial China in terms of martial arts, fashion, and personal weapons, whereas the Earth kingdom is more like later Imperial China. The series as a whole has a few Japanese influences scattered around, but they're not concentrated in any one area. Gloating Swine: Deleted Japan from here again. There is almost nothing of ancient Japan in the Fire Nation. If anywhere in the Avatar world is a Fantasy Counterpart Culture for Japan, it's Kyoshi Island. Lale: I think the reasoning is that it's a small but powerful island nation off the coast off a much larger nation, like Japan is to China. Gloating Swine: That's a fairly weak connection, and is trivial compared to the fact that all their fashions, fighting styles, and, well, everything else about them is early to mid period Imperial China. Certainly they don't bear enough resemblance to be worth mentioning as a Fantasy Counterpart Culture for Japan. Charred Knight: Fire Nation is far more similar to Nazi Germany than Imperial Japan, since its a nation that wants to be a one nation order, and apparently Ozai wants to Ethnically Cleanse the planet (or at least he wants to exterminate the Earth Nation), and since Souzin already killed off the Air Nomads, I see no reason why Ozai would let the Water Nation live. Sukeban: I dunno, it reminds me a lot of Showa era Japan before 1945 — the militarism and children indoctrination, and that thing about "sharing the greatness of the Fire Nation" smacks of the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere".
Satanic Hamster: If I may chime in, I had a grand uncle who fought at Corregidor, survived the Bataan Death March, was POW at Imperial Japanese prison camp, and escaped it and became a guerrilla fighter. That period of his life was so horrible that almost never talked about it. Given if one reads about Japan, East Asia, and World War II, it gives an impression that Imperial Japan wasn't all that different from Nazi Germany. One of the most interesting differences between these nations would be that Nazi Germany generally treated their PO Ws MUCH better than Imperial Japan. I'd say Fire Nation = Imperial Japan fits rather well.
Gloating Swine: When did Suki take a level in badass? I was under the impression that she was always a badass Action Girl, but didn't get enough screen time to show it until The Boiling Rock. Charred Knight: Deleted it for that reason. She was always a badass she just rarely got to show it due to being a minor character. Took A Level In Badass means that a loser character trains and becomes a competent fighter. Sokka learning how to sword fight for an example, if this was an anime you would bet that in Invasion he would be mowing down Fire Nation soldiers. Mc Max: Question. Isn't time to remove spoilers tags from any information that's from seasons one and two? Charred Knight: No, nothing is It Was His Sled, and it would be rude to remove spoiler tags and ruin the plot for people who are not yet into Avatar. If their is a time limit for spoilers, I would think that it would last longer than 1 year. Lale: Might as well be consistent... That Other 1 Dude: Zuko sure as hell isn't The Lancer (he's far from a right-hand man and I don't think he fits anything but Sixth Ranger). Just having Healing powers (that are far from a main ability) and being The Hero's love interest does not automatically make you The Chick (most definitely not "one of the most blatant examples in fiction"). Charred Knight: He's the stereotypical Sixth ranger. He fights the group as an enemy, does the Heel Face Turn and is as powerful as the hero. A Lancer, is the heroes right hand man, best friend, and generally weaker than the hero. Katara fits that perfectly. The only problem is that the character in question joins far to late to be anything more than a minor addition. Gloating Swine: Nope, Katara's still not The Chick, deleted it again. Red Viking: Didn't she used to be The Chick though? Being one doesn't automatically mean you're dead weight. That Other 1 Dude: She was more a member of Team Cannon Fodder, as both her and Sokka weren't very useful compared to Aang early on, but that was taken care of by the end of the first season (at least for her). KJMackley: Unfortunately The Chick has the general connotation of being worthless and girly. I'd think that with Katara being female, having healing powers, being the love interest of The Hero and even the other characters commenting on her "motherly" behavior qualifies her. Just because she doesn't become the helpless hero bait, Katara can be both The Lancer and The Chick. She certainly fits it better then Toph. Charred Knight: The novelization of the finale is out, and based on it, Nick has some massive balls if this airs like the novelization goes since it deals with ethnic cleansing. That Other 1 Dude: I haven't read it, but that seems funny because it was apparently suppose to be for a younger audience then the actual episode. Charred Knight: Neither have I, all I know is that he plans to use Soizin's comet to burn Ba Sing Sa to ashes, when he already rules the city. Charred Knight: deleted because the episodes where not finished yet, hard to show the second half if it isn't finished. Gloating Swine: Cutting the Hartman Hips reference. Belongs on the character page anyway, and isn't really very accurate. Rogue 7: I'm thinking that this page should have a note that it's probably the show that the greatest number of tropers started watching after discovering it here. I loved the show beforehand, but I've seen it mentioned a lot. Mc Max: Deleted the Faceless because we have now seen every bodies face. Adam850: Not so fast! Even though we've seen everybody's face so far, it doesn't mean that for the first two seasons, Ozai wasn't the faceless. He was. Charred Knight: Anyone wanna guess how many Fire Nation people just died? Looking back I am pretty sure that King Bumi just killed Mai's family. Lale: Not unless we see the bodies. Charred Knight: Anyone complaining about Fire Lord Ozai should read Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time, where the act of stilling/gentling removes the ability to channel from a person. In this circumstance the victim will usually die relativly quickly as they lose the will to live, and that's in the outside world. All of the victims that are given this punishment are shown to be shells of their former selves even when revenge is in the works. A scene in the series shows channelers being unnerved even when they temporarly lose the power to channel, and one of those who lost the ability to channel temporarly compared the whole thing to losing the sun. Now equate that to Ozai who has not only lost all his bending abilities but the ability to live in the outside world only having a small cell to live in. Aang has ruined his life, he can no longer bend, he can no longer be outside. He has nothing, Aang has taken everything away from him that truly matters to him. Death is a welcome respite from the unending misery that is Ozai's existence. Ozai has lost the sun, and everything that brings joy, and happyness. Aang is one sick fucking bastard. Lale: Thus raising the question of why heroes with a strict Thou Shalt Not Kill doctrine don't have a "thou shalt not inflict a Fate Worse Than Death" doctrine. An effective Fate Worse Than Death (like this one) is the ultimate loophole for censors, and the conscience, that still delivers Emotional Torque, even more than a simple killing would. Charred Knight: Thinking about it you might be right about this not being an accident by the directors. If you look at the final scene with Ozai his shown huddling in a corner with a blanket on when its clearly not cold. That his life now, wearing a blanket in warm weather, huddling in that corner. Lale: Some page on this site used the term "spiritual castration." Since Aang pretty much removed a piece of his soul, would this qualify as Mind Rape? AkatsukiDaybreak: That has totally changed my opinion of the finale. You're right, Aang is much sicker than I imagined. Killing Ozai would've been much kinder than what he did. I think that definitely belongs in Mind Rape. Lale: I thought so. Bob: I've made a counter-argument on the copy of this discussion on the Mind Rape Discussion page but instead of copying it back here, I think we should just have the entire argument on that page. KJMackley: I think in the end, this would definitely count under Technical Pacifist. It doesn't really specify what he did, but it was clearly a violation. There will definitely be a debate if Aang truely did the right thing. Take A Third Option made himself feel morally clean, but Ozai's condition leads to other implications. Personally I think that Mind Rape implies that that it is traumatic and almost like physical torture with the way they are afterwards, Ozai didn't have a clue what happened. By taking away his bending power, it was symbolic of the Avatar stripping away his right as the Phoenix King and Fire Lord, afterall Authority Equals Asskicking. nlpnt: It isn't all Aang; he spared Ozai's life and took his bending, but Ozai is being held under Zuko's jurisdiction. Zuko's free to have Ozai moved to a completely sunless underground cell, or a much nicer one, or send him off to be a barista in Ba Sing Se for that matter (assuming Iroh'll give his brother a job...) It's probably a matter of when or if Ursa turns up, and in what condition. Lale: Shouldn't we look for a new picture? Black Charizard: I think so. How about this one  ◊? It's from a Nick Magazine issue, and it's the same size and everything than the current one.
Lale: Good, but Off Model.
Ack Sed: I want to thank TV Tropes for turning me on to this show. I would have never considered watching it otherwise,but you've made a fan of me! Lale: A lot of the example descriptions were redundant or Fan Cruft. Lale: Just saying a trope is used "in spades," "frequent, " or "numerous" and nothing more is unnecessary. The trope's presence on the list indicates it was used, and not specifyign indicates use was ongoing or more than once. Numerous characters besides the Dai Li (Zuko, Suki...) can Wall Crawl, so no need to specify. Power Perversion Potential is a fanon practice; (unfortunately) there's no instance in the show of anyone explicitly using their powers for This Or That. If Never Say Die is neither a full aversion nor a habitual practice, then it's not worth listing. Still Waters: I added that last one back in. The double treatment it receives is extremely noticeable when watching the show, and hence worth listing.
Lale: About the Most Common Superpower, Jin may be generously well-endowed, Or So I Heard (I never noticed), but she's not a warrior. KJMackley: I don't think the Most Common Superpower even applies to the show, since Ty Lee is the only example. Even then, the show doesn't have much art exaggeration and everyone has very realistic proportions. Ty Lee wears outfits that could be considered Fan Service, but she isn't exactly unbalanced. I think I'll cut it because it isn't the most obvious or clear use of that trope. KJMackley: I changed the Mac Guffin example to something more accurate. Katara's necklace is used as a Chekhovs Gun for later episodes, but it hardly drives the plot and even the episode where Aang retrieves it during a fight was just an added bonus upon escape. It was never treated like something drastically important, just an item of sentimental value. The frogs in The Blue Spirit on the other hand are much closer to the trope. Lale: Moved the rather long Adrenaline Makeover description to Adrenaline Makeover. Lale: We have six pages of Fridge Logic... KJMackley: I know there has been a lot of debate on this subject but I inserted a line about Katara being The Chick. After helping with Tropes Are Not Good, Square Peg Round Trope and thinking about their relationship with Tropes Are Not Bad, I realized that the only reason people are arguing that Katara isn't The Chick is because she is an Action Girl, not a Distressed Damsel. That isn't the defining characteristic of The Chick, yet Katara fits into being the team's moral center, has healing abilities, is the romantic interest of the hero and lastly, is female (feminine balance). I actually find it more impressive that they were able to combine The Lancer and The Chick so effectively, often the Action Girl is just a girl with a guy's personality. Lale: Thank you. Now for The Chick page... We need a new picture. How about this one?[1]
Black Charizard: Very cool picture, but Zuko fighting alongside the rest of the group is kinda spoilery. Not everybody who comes to read this article has seen the series, you know.
Lale: But You Should Know This Already. The picture for that trope used to show The Hero and a former villain of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha as allies.
KJMackley: I'm thinking what is needed is a more up-to-date image that doesn't outright spoil anything, probably at least something including Toph. I found This Image , which I think would work well. It's visually dynamic and includes the four main group members. Sure it has the eclipse, but we can't get that bent out of shape about spoilers, can we?
Lale: I just feel like... Zuko deserves to be in it. But it's no big deal.
KJMackley: Well the only image that would satisfy everyone and everything would be the Season Two DVD box art, but it would be kind of tacky. Maybe if someone wanted to Photoshop the words and logos out...
KJMackley: I uploaded the eclipse group shot, partially because it was suggested here for an updated picture and also I just love the image. It's a bit wider then the previous image, but not as tall. If you want it to be smaller I can resize it.
Lale: It just ocurred to me — shouldn't it be something in the art style of the actual show? Will newcomers know it's Fan Art? Is that important?
KJMackley: I don't think there is a problem so long as it is not Off Model, but I'll be honest and say I'm not sure if this is Fan Art or a promotional image. I just did a google search and found it. If it is fan art, I really can't tell.
Re: Hama, she is a subversion of The Boo Radley, initially looks evil, makes you think she's not, as with the normal Boo Radley trope, but oh, wait, she actually is, subversion. However, it's a character trope, so I put it on the characters page. Lale: The Boo Radley is a subversion. A person is set-up to look evil and sinister, then that expectation is subverted and they turn out to be not so bad. Hama was set up to look creepy and evil like she was hiding something and... she was. There was never a moment where you wouldn't think she was hiding something. The Defenestrator: You can subvert a trope that is itself a subversion of another trope. That would just make it a Double Subversion of the original trope as well. Right? Lale: But when a trope inherently involves a twist Reveal, and the "subverted" example is the trope with lack of the twist, that probably means they weren't trying to twist The Reveal at all. Deadpool Fan: Removed the hypocritical humour statement in the Metaphorgotten, whether or not Toph or Sokka's quips are good is up to personal indiscretion. Remember Your Mileage May Vary. Fire Walk: Right, I'm doing an over-enthusiastic clearup of the tropes on the list. I openly admit I'm being horrendously dracosian about how I'm clearing things up. Below is what I've savagely cleft, with occasional comments of my own viewpoints. Hopefully salvaging will be more constructive: Character Tropes which are on (or should be on) the character sheet anyway (needn't be added back, unless really wanted, should probably be added to the character sheet)
Added the "redirecting lightning" example. It started out as a Chekhovs Gun when Iroh used it to deflect a natural bolt in The Storm, then later used it to deflect a bolt from Azula. It then graduated to the rank of Chekhovs Skill when Iroh taught it to Zuko, who in turn taught it to Aang — both of whom ultimately used it against Ozai. Mullon: Hey, do Teo, Haru, and The Duke count as Those Two Guys (well, three) during the second half of the third season? They weren't a Greek Chorus, but they did have the same lack of plot relevence. Cronus: Turns out that in the M. Night film, Zuko will now be played by Dev Patel instead of Jesse McCartney General Nerd: Hey, guys. Long time reader, first time Troper. I have a bit of an issue with Zuko's supposed Emo Teen Important Haircut. I always thought this was an homage to Bruce Lee, especially since his fighting style had evolved from the breakdance fighting in Season 1 to something more like Bruce Lee in Season 2. Monaluu the Hopeful: Sweet flame-retardant chest hairs of Roku! This page possibly has 1/3 of all tropes here, mininum (at least, it looks it). Wall Banger was added and subsequently removed on the grounds that it was missing the point. What is the point that is being missed, as a matter of curiosity? The offending entry: The entire show they went on and on about how Aang would have to kill Ozai. They devoted an entire episode telling him that saving the world comes with sacrifice. They even had Avatar Yangchen, a fellow Airbender, tell him that saving the world required sacrificing the ideals he had been raised to believe in for the greater good and he himself is not immune to that just because he is the Avatar. Come the final battle and you expect him to do the deed, ending the problem once and for all, yes? No. Instead, he selfishly risks the safety of the world by using Soulbending to take away Ozai's bending, coming dangerously close to having it backfire on him. Taelor: I'm pretty sure that the point was that you should stand by your beliefs, rather than give into what others expect of you. Anaheyla: That's the thing. It's all fine and good to stand up for what you believe in when the world is not in danger of being destroyed, but the middle of the Final Battle is hardly a time to be having a crisis of conscience. It was either "Let this incredibly dangerous man live because the Airbenders taught me that all life is sacred" or "Kill this man so the world can be safe". As pointed out, he's the Avatar so what he believes in means exactly jack squat where the safety of the world is concerned. Instead of killing Ozai, he used Soulbending, having no idea if it would work, putting the world in danger. Black Charizard: So you disagree with the moral of the finale on the grounds that it wasn't the moment. Fine, many other fans think so. But as polls and ratings of the episode show, most fans really liked it, so it doesn't really qualify as a Wall Banger. You could make a case for it on Broken Aesop, or Western Animation if you want, but remember that the greater part of the fans don't have a problem with the Aesop, and many actually agree with how it was used. Wall Banger is a pretty dodgy trope anyway, so I'm not surprised that the debate finally spilled on TV Tropes. // later: Well, I went to the discussion page of Broken Aesop, and it looks like this example was already there, and it was pulled for not being really an example. So, tough luck. Anaheyla: The Lion Turtle was a Chekhovs Gunman, yes? He was foreshadowed in Indiana Sokka and the Library of Doom. There was never any indication that Aang was capable of taking away someone's bending previous to the Lion Turtle(and no, saying it was foreshadowed by virtue of being "Avatar stuff" does not count, even more so since it apparently pre-dates the Avatar). So my question is, does the Lion Turtle's foreshadowing justify claiming that Energybending was foreshadowed? If so, an explaination would be nice. Patrick: While you are correct there was no indication that Aang could specifically strip someone of their bending, it seemed to This Troper a natural extension of Ty Lee's chi-blocking ability, and several statements since the first episode that bending flowed from life energy/chi. Perhaps this is a case of far too subtle foreshadowing. I would also argue the foreshadowing of the Lion Turtle counts, since it was the bearer of chi-bending. Anaheyla: At no point was it ever even remotely hinted that it was possible to completely remove someone's bending, chi or no chi. As for the Lion Turtle, I could foreshadow a mysterious person of mysteriousness who just happens to have a "Beat-all-the-bad-guys-with-one-hit Stick" but that doesn't mean the stick was foreshadowed. Patrick: Dude, you're splitting hairs. I could go on all day about how it seemed to be a natural extension of bending in general, and you say "At no point was it ever even remotely hinted that it was possible to completely remove someone's bending." I could bring up Ty Lee 's chi blocking and you insist it doesn't count because "at no point was it ever even remotely hinted that it was possible to completely remove someone's bending." I could suggest how it never needed to be to begin with and you'd give me the same argument. You will not except the idea unless it was spelled out in exacting detail at some point earlier in the series. You clearly dislike this particular part of the series. You are entitled to your dislike. And I am done with this argument. You may have the final word if you wish. Anaheyla: Bending: Channeling your chi in order to manipulate the elements around you/make fire out thin air. Energybending: Manipulating someone else's chi in order to completely remove someone's ability to bend. Something that just happens to come up when Aang was angsting over whether or not to kill Ozai. That's fortunate. :notrust Ty Lee: Hit pressure points at a certain angle to block someone's access to chi. Energybending: Hand on face, no more bending. May well say that because firebenders can create fire they are capable of interstellar travel. Firebenders can fly using fire. Rocket ships fly using fire. The logic works! If these things are foreshadowing, I'm Mary Queen of Scots. KJMackley: I did some clean-up. There were two redlinks to tropes claiming to be named by the show. I also took out Big Lipped Alligator Moment because it did not fit the trope, many people are just using the trope to label a scene they didn't like and The Great Divide is at worst a fan hated, stand alone episode. The trope is supposed to be a scene that wedges itself into the middle of the action without any bearing on the story, the first season was not very serialized. I also took out Relationship Writing Fumble because the trope is when everything goes to a Last Minute Hook Up or Pair The Spares or in general the writers seem to not know who they are going to pair up. The Shippers may not have liked what happened but Aang and Katara was always hinted at from the beginning with Zuko and Katara only being an out of universe Ship Tease, in universe it seemed more of a friendship then romantic.
Lale: Are these Crowning Moment polls permanent? When does the poll turn turn back into a legible, organized page? It's fun to vote, I guess, but harder to read. Wascally Wabbit: I believe they're permentant, as an attempt to redefine CMOA as a single incident per character. Cut caption because yes, it is a kids show and trying to deny that is plain foolish. Not until kids' shows showing murder or premarital sex practically on-screen becomes the norm. |
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