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Narrative
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"Wangst is less about the outward expression of the angst, but instead letting the angst be the sole defining characteristic of the character."
This is a very good way to phrase an important element of identifying Wangst. Thought I'd bring it to everyone's attention. It is also repeated/rephrased in the page description itself, fyi.
I am excising the following: 'Notice that, while overdone, Kagome had a valid reason to angst. Lots of people in the other era sees her less as the normal girl she is and more like the second coming of the Miko Kikyou (which she technically is), therefore Kagome either was seen as a poor Replacement Scrappy for her or a "living Shikon shard detector" (specially Naraku, who is specially good at taunting her with that). Combine this with Kagome having the revived and much more conflicted Kikyou as both her love rival and The Minnesota Fats, and with Inuyasha practically running off towards Kikyou whenever she was mentioned despite Kagome also needing his support (he even lampshades this to himself more than once... but does it anyway despite knowing he shouldn't), and it's just a thing of time before Kagome reaches her limits.' This is yet another needless justifying edit. I'm not annoyed by it, it's an earnest rationale of her character's situation, as are many of these justifications. But once again, this trope isn't about a character's situation. It's about how their internal drama is presented. Wangst is internal drama executed in a persistently poorly written fashion, yet played up far too much. Or something to that effect. And if anything, the troper discredited the need for her very edit within the very first sentence. "Notice that, while overdone[...]" If it's overdone, then it's wangst. Before we make any additions to this page (and for that matter, before we make overly hasty removals) we should not only adhere to the disclaimer and note, but also re-read the page itself or at least read the critical paragraphs. Helga: Just wanted to say, this is the definition of the word angst. Angst is used inappropriately almost all of the time. The word for what most people term angst is probably pathos. Angst is whining and anguish that is beyond what the situation calls for. Somfin: No, you've misread things. Pathos is heroic sadness, and it's over quickly. Angst is overdone heroic sadness that, while you want to call the guy out on it, adds to the story. Wangst is overdone heroic sadness that drags on for so long, or is so overblown, that it loses the audience in its self-loathing. Angst can be good- Romeo was angsty- but Wangst cannot. HeartBurn Kid: Re-added:
Roland: Is the FFVIII one strictly correct? (I'll admit it, I'm an FFVIII fan, so I may not notice it.) Rebochan: People really hate FFVIII. You'd think they'd stop caring after all this time, but I'm pretty sure they've probably played it through a few times just to properly express their anger at the game. Of course it's not Wangsty at all, but again, people just hate FFVIII for no reason at all. Lale: Took out "While he does have a lot of reasons to be reasonably angsty, Prince Zuko of Avatar The Last Airbender occasionally slips into Wangst territory, most infamously, a moment where he suddenly decided he deserved to be smited. All suspiciously contradictory to the deep speech he gave in the previous season about how feels that struggle and hardship makes him a stronger person." since he's a villain, and stoicism and one moment of losing it translates to angst, not Wangst, unless... does every The Stoic belong on this page? The silent, brooding, Leave Me Alone side of angst is never presented sympathetically because Loners Are Evil. Kilyle: First, I understood it as angst plus wank due to the meaning of Fan Wank. But that aside, can someone put up the reverse of this as a link on this page? Because as irritating as it is for the characters to mention the Dead Little Sister (or whatever) every single episode, it's even more irritating to have them lose a major character (or, at least, a character with a major impact in their lives) and then completely forget them by the next episode. Or mention them once and never again. E.g., Neelix and/or the Doctor forgetting Kes once she leaves the ship. I think that's the right type of example. Anyway, I can't think of which trope this is right now (guess I'm just tired), so I'll leave it to someone else to put up a link. Thanks! Lale: Short Mourning Period? the grene kni3t: Angst What Angst? Fly: For the last time, Cloud was not angsty! He was in complete denial! Charred Knight: This is more about Advent Children where the most often complained part was how Cloud had reverted back to his days as a member of Shinra. H. Torrance Griffin: Concerning the Avatar entry, am I the only one wondering if a twelve year old kid's anger/moodiness over losing the last living link to his Doomed Hometown is petty enough to count as Wangst? Bob: I agree. I don't think Aangs behavior qualify as Wangst, even if he did suffer a temporary Freak Out. Kongming: Does Fullmetal Alchemist belong here? I would argue that it does not. Ed's angsting stems not from the fact that he lost his limbs or that his brother lost his body, but from the fact that he instigated the attempt to revive their mother, so he blames himself for his brother's predicament and feels a heavy burden of responsibility to restore him to normal. Al, whatever brotherly obligation he might feel to help Ed, does not feel particularly responsible, nor is there any reason for him to blame himself. Dan: Technically every single character here has good reasons for their angst. It's when the writers overdo it that it becomes wangst. All these justifications seem to go against what this page is about. If it's truly justified then just remove the entry entirely. It seems to me what we have here are fanboys who don't like seeing their favorite show under a "negative" trope, but still want to get that body hit wick for some reason. Charred Knight: Wangst is not about whining for no good reason, its when the whining becomes a nuisance, and Ed was definatly a nuisance in the anime. The manga made it perfectly clear that he made a mistake, and he knows that but he doesn't let it dominate him. Also when he meets Rose he takes it to another level. Kongming: Ed felt bad, he had his sad blank stare moments, but I don't recall any actual whining or his angst rendering him ineffectual. Even if that had been the case, well, dude's a 15-year-old boy. Now if a grizzled veteran like Roy had been acting in the same way, sure, it's probably wangst. Actually, reading over this makes me question the validity of this trope to begin with, since it seems very subjective, but whatever. Oh, and if that last sentence was a shot at me, Dan... What the hell? What did I do to warrant being called a fanboy? Even if I had done something, how is accusing other editors of being fanboys in any way conducive to discussion? Sandria: He doesn't let it dominate him in the anime either. The fact that they showed a couple of scenes where he's blank-eyed and depressed doesn't really constitute the whining necessary for Wangst, as he's still proactive and still very much a Determinator. I am considering removing it, because I do think that his angst was well-handled. I would be interested to see people who disagree provide some solid, canonical examples of the Wangst. Roy from the movie, though — he can stay. H. Torrance Griffin: In the interest of avoiding an Edit War, may I ask why the expansions on the Avatar The Last Airbender entry were reverted? Lale: I'm guessing because the 2nd expansion justified it out of qualifying, and that's accurate. A victim of child abuse is allowed to be depressed  , a 12-year-old who has to save the world is allowed to snap (maybe that should go under Deconstruction of the Kid Hero?)
Dan: Because someone genuinely felt that to be Wangst. There's a reason "Aangst" jokes are made because there are times when he overdoes it (I recall at a forum I visit that when that part of season two aired "aangst" jokes were at an all-time high). And there's a reason the "Zuko = Sasuke" comparison exists. When you think about it, why is Sasuke here? When he was eight years old, he came home to find his entire family slaughtered and his older brother, who was responsible, told him he was weak and pathetic and that he wasn't worth killing. In real life, that'd probably take decades of therapy to get over. But yet some say he over-angsts. And what about Batman? A character who I've NEVER found to be wangsty is mentioned here because somebody out there does. What makes Avatar so different?
All characters here have justified reasons for their angst. But as the page mentions, you have to be careful when writing about it or it can come off as whiny and annoying.
This is a Subjective Trope. By nature, not everyone's going to agree and cluttering the examples with justifying edits kind of ruins their point. It's much better to put a disclaimer at the top if it'll make you feel better. Really, as long as there's some basis for the opinion, I feel it is allowed to stay. Unlike, say, if somebody added a Spongebob Squarepants example where no sort of angst even exists.
Robert Bingham: Which is precisely why I added it to the Subjective Tropes list a few days ago.
That Other 1 Dude: That is quite ironic that this article comes off as overly whiny about characters... being whiny.
Somfin: That. Is. Not. Irony. It's appropriate. Ironic would be if it were whiny about happy characters.
Charred Knight: deleted
Zelnor: I always wonder why the people have to borrow a word from german to use it for, as Angst means nothing more then plain "fear" in it's native german meaning. Denkt euch eure eigenen Begriffe aus. >_> Frank75: What about the 1359621460356 English loan words in German? ;-) Cut this line:
Nerem: Editted out the SRW reference, because most ironically, its wangsting about what happened to Lamia. Its a long story, folks. Chris X: Edited? More like 'removed'. 'Sides, putting aside Lamia's stuffs, Juergen is still an example of Wangst. It deserves to be there, though the other references can be put out. Charred Knight: Rewrote part of the Roy Mustang, and deleted this because I made it more clear. Even in the anime, Roy Mustang could have put his connections with Grumman, (even though he was nowhere as close to Grumman as he was in the manga, he still played Chess with him), and his status as a hero into becoming one of the leaders of the country, and antoning for it in a productive manner instead of Self Exile in presumably mount Briggs, which doesn't help anyone. Not even Armstrong acted like that and his a Technical Pacifist!
Austin: Is Kratos really an example? The only time he really goes wangsty is when he finds out that Zeus destroyed Sparta. Every other time, he mainly angsts internally, and he actually does something about his problems. Komodin: Removed:
Rebochan: I get the feeling a lot of the examples here are less about characters excessively complaining about their pasts and more complaining about characters that haven't gotten over their problems, no matter how complicated, within five minutes of them happening. That or complaining about characters actually *having* problems. Cliche: I am thoroughly amused by the dispute over Final Fantasy Wangst. I'd like to keep it to demonstrate the subjective nature of the trope (and get a few laughs at Final Fantasy's Broken Base's expense) but I do recognize it doesn't reflect well on the wiki's reputation. Ikkin: On the subject of both Square-Enix characters and characters that merely have problems, Riku's actions in Chain of Memories seem to contradict this trope on all levels. Not only does he spend his entire portion of the game actively trying to deal with very recent problems, he's not even particularly whiny about them; his actual dialogue tends more towards bravado than self-pity, even when he admits that he hates what he is. Rebochan: Right, I think I've made too many Justifying Edits. In fact, I feel terribly guilty for it. My pain is so great for it (puts on black shirt and dyes hair black)...Just kidding. But my urge to compress the natter is being tempered by the fact that cutting that entry down to express that some people think that Final Fantasy characters have too much angst and some people think those people are on crack is a lofty task in and of itself. I mean seriously, I don't know what a guy has to do in this franchise to not be accused of Wangst. Possibly live as a hermit? Ikkin: How did the mess that was the Final Fantasy section manage to get even worse? I attempted a cleanup; here's what used to be there: As for what a Squenix character could do to not be accused of Wangst, I don't think even being a hermit could help, since they'd probably just end up suffering from Loners Are Freaks - or, quite possibly, "Loners Are Emo." Rebochan Well that's one way to handle it. I put it behind a folder for ease of reading this page. The current entry is really good. Nice, concise, neutral. I like it. Edit: Except I added Squall. Because even though I don't think he's an example or that he's "emo" at all, I know he's going to crop up again if something reasonable isn't added. I tried to use your example of explaining why some people could see him that way, and also why some people don't. Haven: I don't see Ash as inappropriately wangsty. I mean...that is a terrible situation, some aspects of it are Nightmare Fuel even. Whatever: I cut this. Because for crying out loud, where the hell did that come from? If a male character is a good Woobie and a female character is The Wesley and/or The Scrappy, it has to be because everyone's being sexist? Dookie: Somebody please sort the examples into folders. There are way too many examples to just leave like that. Rebochan: Done and done. I'll just have you know that this took a very long time and in the time it took me to do so, my hometown was destroyed by a meteor and my boyfriend broke up with me. Plus my hair has split ends. SPLIT ENDS! Ugh. I totally dyed my hair black to show how tormented putting the page into folders made me feel. Count Dorku: There was only one problem with the folders (no offence meant) - someone left the Music folder as a link to the Music Tropes page. So if you just wanted to open each folder individually, you couldn't, because trying to open Music would bounce you straight to Music Tropes without a saving throw. So I've shredded the link - try not to get too wangsty about it. Mullon: So, um, with all the controversy surrounding Avatar's entries, does that mean I should not put in a picture of Zuko crying on that mountaintop in the rain? Because I thought of a really funny caption to go along with it. Maybe I should put it in the Emo Teen section instead. Doctor Nemesis: Just wanna say, the new page write-up is really good! It's sheer quality almost dulls the aching soul-pain I felt when I saw that my previous version had been replaced by a much superior version. Doctor Nemesis: I've moved the following example here for discussion:
sandria: I removed a needless comparison between the Fullmetal Alchemist anime and manga, since it didn't actually address the topic of the page. The example was already specified as animeverse. Please try to keep Complaining About Shows You Dont Like, even if it is subtle, to the forums. DD: Mkay, so what precisely is the point of the Wangst label? Is it meant to be some kind of thematic blacklist? Does tolerating or, horror of horrors, liking them make the viewer/reader/listener little more than an Emo Teen? Hell, are Emo Teens meant to just shut up, dress normal and put on a Stepford Smile? Surely negative thoughts and expression isn't merely an adolescent thing? Is catharsis to be shunned? Are we all meant to just snap our fingers and be normal, productive members of society, just like that? Or is it all just a case of Your Mileage May Vary? And why oh why do I keep asking these questions? That's my Wangsting over, carry on. Rebochan: I like to think of it as part of the anti-Emo fad on the net. I think it may be reaching saturation though. I seriously saw someone, with no hint of sarcasm, describe Kingdom Hearts II as "Grimdark". Oh, and most of the "Wangst" accusations are thinly-veiled attempts to simply complain about shows and characters the troper doesn't like. The fact this is now a subjective trope makes that all the more obvious. Blaggerbat: The very first paragraph defines Wangst as: The intended Woobie becomes a pathetically whiny character who insists on moping (often loudly and repeatedly) about a tragic past or event instead of, you know, trying to deal with it and stop being depressed all the time. And later goes on to say: Angst/Wangst is not a crutch for drama and Character Development; good characters are defined by factors other than their Dark And Troubled Pasts. As such, I removed Edward Elric's example, which went as follows (I retained the Justifying Edit, as well):
Kitsune Inferno: Removed the following:
Echospeed: Not much to add except that I can't look at that picture from Gantz without laughing my tail off. "You don't understand me...no one understands me...huuuuuuuuu..." It sums up the article in one picture better than I thought possible! gibberingtroper Regarding this entry.
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