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Narrative
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85.176.108.96: Hey, my suggestion is to use this picture
 ◊: instead of Shana.
Narvi: Too big. Too bad, it's hilarious. Where is it from?
Citizen: Shana stays. The picture is from http://manga.clone-army.org/ . Moving on, see this page from Kodomo no Jikan for an example of anti-tsundere techniques in use.
Heyleto: This has been on my mind for a while, and I just want to get it off my chest: in Twilight Princess. during the bit where you become a wolf for the first time, much time was spent swearing at the screen and threatening Midna's life. Should I seek help? Potman: Bill Watterson has himself stated that Calvin has a bit of a crush at Susie Derkins, and expresses this either by annoying her, or via a proxy (Hobbes). In my personal opinion, this qualifies him as a male example of this trope quite nicely. Addition to Tsundere launched as Tsundere: From YKTTW
Black Humor: Sheogorath is not a Tsundere. Sheogorath is Ax Crazy.
Adonic Meki: Can we get a line in the main page of this telling where the trope name comes from? Looney Toons: Seconded. ghostlightning: Sheryl Nome is getting attention for her tsundere behavior opposite Saotome Alto. The interesting thing is that he's equally alternating between tsun tsun and dere dere concerning her. It's like a dance. Ranka Lee, the other corner of the triangle has a more open affection for Alto. Citizen: I'm thinking that Haruhi Suzumiya is a little too genki to be a tsundere... Pavlov: Ever see that scene where she kicks the Computer Club president in the head from a standing leap? That was cool. But I think she's here because of the quantity of damage she can do. Lots of people want to destroy the world when they're angry but few can follow through. Citizen: That's not what being a tsundere means. Anyway, compare her to other tsunderes, like Shana. It's all about the personality. Instead of the tsuntsun side, she has a genkigenki side. Jisu: I say Haruhi's both — genki in her general life, but both tsuntsun and deredere in her relations with Kyon. See any scene where she's stewing jealously or musing unsurely, then immediately jumps back to the Genki Girl we know and love — specifically episodes 5 (3), 12 and 14 (6). Citizen: Okay, I'll give you that, but Kyon? He's a Deadpan Snarker with Selective Obliviousness. I can sort of see what whoever wrote that is talking about, but it seems like too weak an example, so I'm removing it. Kyonko being a memetic genderswap, I'm not sure that belongs, either. Smokie: I think Haruhi doesn't fit because she's not "violent<->affectionate". When she's unsure or something, she's mostly melancholic. Otherwise, she's in her usual Genki Girl attitude, which wouldn't be called "violent". I mean, she's rarely physically violent.. (Except when she actually attacks people for fun..). No, the more I think about it, the less I think she's a tsundere like we know them. She does have such moments (When she gave Kyon the umbrella, or when Kyon woke up from his coma/sleep/whatever in the hospital.) but it's generally too, how should I say that.. "Sociopathic Genki Girl" really hits it.I like what is written in the Four Temperament Ensemble trope. I'm good with the edit you made Citizen, but I rephrased it. Fast Eddie: One million unique IP's viewed our wiki on 24 APR, 2007. This entry (Tsundere) received the hit. We owe that to Tabbyclaw on an inbound link, which is a lot weird, 'cuz here is no one around here by that handle.
Ununnilium: "It's not that I liked your website or anything. I just had a spare millionth hit, is all."
Tabby: (Over a year later and doing a vanity Google) Not so weird; that was me.
Lale: I wanted to add song lyrics that seem dead on for this character, but I don't for the life of me know how to wrap the text around the picture. Fast Eddie: Put it in. It should wrap all by itself. Elsewise, I'll have a look to see what's up. Kasumi (Misty) from Pokemon, maybe? A mild case, but still... Lale: She's got the bipolar thing, but canonically, she doesn't have a crush on the protagonist. Cassius335: Debatable. She hasn't actually come out and said "I love you" on-screen (wrong kind of show), but there's a lot of hints that way... Most blatantly, "Misty's Song" from the first album: http://www.sendspace.com/file/arpfke
Also http://www.thepokemontower.com/mp3tunes/anmmarried.wav (From Ep 199, "The Heartbreak of Brock")
Anonymous: More debatable because most of the romantic hints indicated by Misty were 4kids dub only.
Pavlov: Hey, did anyone else catch episode 10 of Lucky Star? Just the other day in the ending segment, called Lucky Channel, one of the characters named Minoru Shiraishi came out of his shy shell and went completely bananas on the subject of Tsundere. He lectured on it, saying that originally the word meant a character who starts off hostile and eventually becomes affectionate, describing a change over time. And how now the term refers to the multiple faces of a character, hostile on the outside and affectionate on the inside. This guy ranted for nearly two minutes about this, how the viewers need to come up with a new term to replace the word Tsundere. Pretty funny stuff, but I swear, it was like the segment was written about this page! Pavlov: And I just noticed that Jisu made an entry on this page for the same thing. (Sigh) Oh well, at least I added content. Jisu: Sorry, I've got to defer credit; that example wasn't mine. Ununnilium: Okay, why the extra "u" in Suzumiya Haruhi No Yuutsu? osh: Long vowel, IIRC. It's better than those little hat indicators over it like Wikipedians seem fond of doing. Jisu: I know "yuuutsu" looks weird, but it's how the Keyboard system works with how it's written. And the "little hat" is a macron, used in the Hepburn system, which Wikipedia has marked as the only one it wants to use. Citizen: I say we compromise... by using neither. =P dunerat: Reference on wiki's Hepburn preference? Note that Japan's official position is to use the 'u' for long vowels, not the older Hepburn system (although there are still plenty of signs written in Hepburn). It is both accurate and correct anyway, since it matches how the words are spelled, as opposed to Hepburn's dropping letters in favour of goofy symbols no one really understands anyway. TJ Devil 02: Is there a separate trope for the male equivalent? When discussing the concept with friends, the behavior of Sean Mercer (John Wayne) in Hatari! comes to mind. Starts off hating the person, refuses to let himself get romantically involved, and very slowly warms up to her. By the last scene, they're married. (Justified in the movie, as Sean had been burned by an ex-fiancee and tried to swear off women.) Lale: The Masochism Tango or Slap Slap Kiss. Khym Chanur: That sounds like the male version of Defrosting Ice Queen, while a tsundere flips back a forth. osh: Yup, lots of Jerks With A Heart Of Gold boyfriends in shoujo, but they ususally get defrosted. Chuckg: Put a note in Katara's entry reflecting that her Tsundere tendencies have decreased a lot in season 2. (Sure, there's "The Chase", but the point of that episode was that everyone was tired, stressed, and flipping out over nothing.) Lale: And the way she went from a fit of rage in CoD to bursting into tears to quietly bonding with her arch enemy was... what? Chuckg: Within the normal human emotional range? Tsundere is when you emotionally blow hot and cold over everyday things, or nothing at all, and you do so regularly. Katara was, in that anything-but-regular set of circumstances, expressing anger at someone she had every reason and more to be angry with, and then weeping over the death of someone she had every weason to weep for (and hadn't allowed herself to weep for in far too long)... and then finally having Zuko, inadvertently or otherwise, play on that by going 'Hey, my mom was probably killed by Fire Lord Ozai too!'. There's a middle ground between Tsundere and Emotionless Girl, after all, and reacting normally to prolonged extreme stress and deeply-rooted emotional hot buttons being drop-kicked isn't either. And given that she spends most of the rest of season 2 being the group's emotional anchor, especially during the desert arc, I think she's kinda outgrown her bipolar of Season 1. Her last real burst of bipolar is when Toph drives her to frothing rage over trivial causes in "The Chase" — after they made up from that, Katara's most often the one keeping the group hotheads grounded and making peace, not the one going off. (add) Just remembered her last real outburst before that — when she went off on Jet. However, when your first love/crush turns out to be a borderline psychotic war criminal, and you have no idea he's reformed, its hardly 'blowing hot and cold' for no reason to go off on him like he still is a war criminal the next time you meet. Basically, I don't see where somebody deserves the Tsundere label if there's actually a reason why they're violently mood swinging on someone, unless they do it all the time. Katara in season 2 qualifies for neither. Lale: You realize there's nothing wrong with writing a Tsundere in your show? Relax. Chuckg: Oh come on, Lale. Agree or don't agree, but getting on the 'You are disagreeing with me at greater length than I want to hear, therefore you must be an overwrought fan boy who needs to take a pill' trip is annoying. Cassius335: Children, Children. Don't make me separate you. I've copied some of the old text back into the example for the sake of clarity and preservation. Lale: Actually, it's been justified out of qualifying. Cassius335: Moving it here then. The original paragraph is one of my favourites and I'm not going to let it lost in the page history.
Cassius335:
Solandra: Removed the Inuyasha example, as it's more like a Slap Slap Kiss situation on both sides (besides, they're already mentioned in Takahashi Couple). Also removed my long-ago Gravitation example upon further consideration, and also because the list is long enough as it is. On a sidenote, I notice that some of the examples (a minority here, but still...) are more "girl is cranky towards everyone, but a complete mush-case around her love interest" rather than the described "girl (occasionally guy) flip-flops between crankiness and mushiness when dealing with her love interest." The tsundere concept is probably quite broad, but do these kind of examples really fit here? (The first, not the latter) Much later: Did a rewrite of the body of the article to better organize the info that's been added on over time. Also removed some of the examples of characters who are nothing but lovestruck towards the people they love, because the main point of a tsundere is that she's "hot and cold" toward her love interest (one even linked the character's name to Yandere, which is the opposite of Tsundere!). Chris X: Why is Soi Fon's entry removed? I don't think Donna counts, honestly. For one thing, she's rarely if ever deredere, and for another, it's usually—well, always, actually—because she's being wound up by the Doctor, who deserves it anyway. Sir Psycho Sexy: Would Keiko Yukimura count? Just want to check. Runespoor: I don't see how the Naruto examples fit the bill, particularly Ino. The girl doesn't even have a love interest to be violent-mushy at - unless you count her crush on Sasuke, which is clearly not a case of tsundere-ness (she does the Clingy Jealous Girl routine and it's common knowledge for everyone that she likes him) or Chouji which, while their interaction fits the trope better, is at best very, very subtextual. Also, we should precise who Sakura gets Tsundere about, because the list is making me think it means Part I Sakura who's in love with Sasuke in much the same way Ino is. If anything the trope fits her behaviour around Naruto. Again, we should make it clearer. Unless someone disagrees I'll remove Ino and clears the Sakura->Naruto bit. KJMackley: I had one of those lightbulb moments and thought that a specific quote from Christopher Titus would be perfect for the page. The quote that I replaced was kind of generic, though was common among the character type. If you don't like it, I'm okay if you replace it. Otempora: Quick question — how do you pronounce "tsundere"? For the longest time I pronounced "Too-sun-druh", but now I've switched to "soon-dare-eh", which I think is closer. KJMackley: I pronounce it Sun-Dure-Ay just because it rolls off the tongue easier then the phoenetic Tee Sun Dure. Radical Taoist: KJ, you're pretty close. Japanese pronunciation is phonetic. The pronunciation following the hiragana is tsun-de-re, with both of the "e" vowels pronounced the same as in "check" and "tell". (It's like the vowel in "play" and "ray" except without the "y" glide at the end.) The "tsu" syllable is actually pronounced t'sue - you go from the t to the s without any vowel in between (for the linguistically minded, that's an aspirated voiceless interdental stop followed immediately by a voiceless interdental fricative). Inkki Bookman: From watching a number of fansubs, the Japanese word tsundere sounds like it rhymes with the english word thunder as in (sun-durr). ...Don't we have a page for helpful notes on Japanese pronunciation? dunerat: Correction: Tsu-n-de-re. It's a four mora word. Pronounced /tsɯ/-/n/-/de/-/ɺe/, or for non-IPA types as /tsoo/-/n/-/dā/-/rā/, although the trailing 'ā' in the last mora is often dropped in normal speed speech. Not sure where Radical Taoist got the "check" and "tell" examples from, that vowel is /ɛ/ (open-mid front unrounded) whereas the vowel in "play" is /e/ (close-mid front unrounded). Can I propose changing the image? This one  ◊ seems to encapsulate the concept so much more completely than a random picture of Shana.
Meta Four: I've moved the Gunnerkrigg examples to the recently-launched Mood Swinger article. They're a better fit there. There may be some more examples that belong in Mood Swinger rather than here, but I don't know enough about these series to say for sure. I'm thinking we should add a separate section for male characters. Thirding. —Azz (also, Katy Perry's Hot n Cold is a great music male example.) Dear person who doesn't capitalize or punctuate: Please leave the "Nancy" quote alone. Seeing as both quotes are equally appropriate to the trope (and they are) Elinor Wylie (what with her added Older Than Television mojo) trumps Garth Brooks any day. On the contrary, while not the best of quotes, Brooks trumps Wylie. Both because it is, in fact, more appropriate to the trope, and because it is better written of the two.
Eddie Van Helsing: Hey, Orihime, shouldn't Uryuu Ishida be the Rival, and not a "platonic Tsundere"? Orihime: - re-thinks about this- Could he be both? Because that's what it sounds like. Technically, he's the rival, but I recall him also pulling the I Was Just Passing Through excuse at least twice when he goes help Ichigo and the others... Barano: He does the classic "I'm not doing this for you, I just [insert lame excuse]" at least two times (once with Rukia and once with Orihime), then there's his "I'm only saving you so we can beat each other up later" excuse for saving Ichigo's life, then he insists that he's not fighting to help Rukia and Ichigo but for his own pride as a Quincy (which may not be a complete lie but there's still obviously more to it), insisting that they're enemies which is obviously a lie that nobody takes seriously least of all Ichigo, etc... not to mention his helping people then shooting them down with " it's no big deal" routine that he shows in the first episode he appears in, which, according to Orihime is his normal behavior with his classmates and clubmates. Yet there are moments when he's openly worried, relieved, etcl, basically shows his dere side. (Hell, Orihime and Ichigo even comment on him not being honest about his feelings which is a typical tsundere trait.) Plus he's not really the Rival anymore seeing that Ichigo has far surpassed him by now (damn you, Kubo). Draqua: Does Rorschach of Watchmen count for a Type A rare male tsundere? I mean, he acts cold, detached and violent 99% of the time... But on certain occasions, like the handshake scene, shows he does have a soft, delicate inner core. Goldfritha: No, because it's not triggered by a woman he's in love with or even attracted to. Draqua: Well, Rorschach's attraction to Dan can be debated... Rogue 7: What is it about this page that attracts song lyrics? Would the concept of Tsundere be like the relationship problems seen in Borderline Personality Disorder? They tend to either idealize a person (think they're perfect) or devalue them (hate them) and often switch between the two. Of course, most borderlines also have Clingy Jealous Girl traits as well. One book about this condition summed it up well by being titled I Hate You, Don't Leave Me! Haven Removed this, because, well, the second line summed it up perfectly.
Kris Mahai: Removed C.C. from the Code Geass example because she's actually a Kuudere. Thinks Too Much: Corrected whoever called Revy 'both a Tsundere and a Yandere' for several reasons. One: As someone else pointed out, you can't be both. Two: Revy clearly falls into the first category given the description on the page. Three: Revy is clearly not a Yandere seeing as she definitely doesn't appear "cute and harmless on the surface" (direct quote from the Yandere page), is in no way Moe Moe, and when Rock seems interested in Yukio around the end of the second season, her response is not to go psycho but to distance herself from him. |
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