Rape Is Love Discussion - Television Tropes & Idioms

YYZ: Not to be crude, but this whole trope could be summed up essentially as "Orgasm makes everything okay." Which isn't exactly true in real life.

Seth: Citizen chose the perfect image for this one.

Citizen *snicker*

Ununnilium: Haha, wow, yes.

Seth: See now i need to share this

◊. Dare you click it though?

Citizen: That's exactly the picture I was looking for, Seth, but I couldn't find it. ^^

Pave: We need awards for best, funniest, most apt, etc. We've got some real Tropies contenders here!

Seth: Alas for now we have Made Of Win. It is all we need for now. (Well there was that OWE i received from Fast Eddie :D)

Tanto: The Trope-hies?

Seth: How about just an index of Funny Tropes? With the person who wrote them credited next to the entry?

Lale: This trope is supposed to be funny?

Pave: No, the pictures, the pictures. Watch a few episodes of Suzumiya Haruhi No Yuutsu if you still don't get it.

Citizen: Possibly relevant.

Pave: Okay, the Made Of Win page completely rocks. But there still needs to be a physical icon to hand to people, like the Oscar. If the name came from Looney Toons, are they Loonies? Or am I a lunie for caring?

Lale: This is why I hate joining cyber communities- Too serious! Too much pressure! The lack of personal interaction in the Internet should make things less complicated. I don't think we need recognition or whatever in stuff/places purely cyber.

Ununnilium: But tropes are Serious Business! `-`

That said, yeah, I don't think we need any "prizes". Having it written on Made Of Win is enough.

Pave: (Rolls eyes) I didn't mean LITERAL awards, people. No one is going to ask you to donate or host the award show. It's called Make Believe! It's been too long since you were kids! For instance, "Citizen, that was a righteously hilarious picture. I hereby award you the Golden Toonie. Your name has been added to the Made Of Win page, feel free to put this on your resume."

Citizen: Wow, that picture sure sparked a disproportionate amount of conversation in the Rape Is Love thread... =P

Seth: Made Of Win is enough. Now that i look at this one though is this a scan from a magazine? Its a really low quality image.

Citizen: It's a screenshot from a.f.k.'s release... Where did I go wrong? orz

Seth: I'm just wondering if there is a better quality one, this one is grainy and there is a black line on the bottom. Its still hilarious.

Solandra: *blink* Wow...so innocent, yet so dirty.

Citizen: I replaced the pic, not sure if there's a difference, though... ^^

How can this trope have "Originated from published yaoi and Slash Fic", when several of the examples listed predate the popularity of such things by many decades? In fact we might want to consider this as one The Oldest Ones In The Book.

Seth: That list is overpopulated. I'm not an expert on Yaoi slash fic but it seems rather than originated it was used so much in there that people instantly associate the two.

Solandra: *sweatdrop* That was because I created this article soon after the Seme and Uke ones. But really, the trope can apply to any kind of romance. It's just the yaoi genre that seems to be crammed to the gills with it, more than any other. Maybe a mention about the "bodice ripper" genre should be added too.

Seth: The latest edits seem to have cleared this issue up. I would add the Bodice ripper example since its basically the same as the Yaoi one.

Since watching Kyou Kara Maou i'm getting used to all these Yaoi tropes with very little squick - you find yourself wondering when Yuuri will give into wolfram (There are still a few dozen episodes left for me, maybe they have a Rape Is Love moment still - squee :))

osh: Kyou Kara Maou was stuck in a early Sunday broadcast, which did kind of prevent anything too racy from popping up.

Citizen: On a whim, I post a section supposedly from the Zero No Tsukaima light novels... [1]

Saito: "Hey, Derf, who's the coolest guy in this world?"

Derflinger: "You of course, partner."

Saito: "In this diry world where the mages swagger all over the place, who's the greatest guy?"

Derflinger: "You of course, partner."

Saito raised his chest even more. Some unknown confidence is rising within him for absolutely no reason. He felt as if the entire world is blessing him. Saito is obviously lacking in the IQ department.

Saito: "To be violated by such a cool and great dude like me, Ruiz sure is lucky."

Derflinger: "That arrogant noble girl sure is lucky. But why won't you try hitting on her normally? If she's falling for you, then you don't have to wait for her to be asleep to do this, no?"

A very reasonable opinion. However, Saito shook his head.

Saito: "She's stubburn, can't be honest."

Derflinger: "Sure looks like it."

Saito: "If I try hitting on her normally, her shyness will just get the better of her, and she'll just say something like "what are you talking about? You familiar!", and look away for sure."

Derflinger: "You're totally right. My partner sure is a clever man."

Saito: "Right? That's why violation. Even though her mouth is saying all those arrogant things, at the bottom of her heart, she wants to be conquered by me. After all, she's in love with me, you know. That's the kind of girl Ruiz is."

Derflinger: "Ohh, my partner is a genius."

Saito: "Therefore, as the representative of Earth, I shall now violate a bishoujo of this alter-world Halkeginia. That why I want you to be quiet, alright?"

Derflinger shook slightly, as a sign of agreement.

Derflinger: "In that case, I'll be quiet."

Saito saluted him, and snuck closer towards Ruiz's bed.

Dentaku: The example from Kannazuki No Miko should perhaps make a reference to the manga, where the rape is much more explicit. In the anime Himeko gets pretty ruffed up by Chikane - which can be bad all in itself in a trusting relationship - but there is no indication of actual rape there.

Aya: Sleeping Beauty?

fleb: Yeah. King finds pretty sleeping girl, king rapes girl, girl wakes up when her newborn twins suck out the poison splinter from her finger. King comes back to visit, brings her home, and once they kill his wife in the sequel, they live Happily Ever After.

Kool Kid Joe: Anyone care to explain the Bible entry in more detail? The only instance I can think of is Amnon and Tamar, which completely contradicts this trope. Of course, we could be talking about this in meta-relation, i.e., God forcing himself into your heart, despite the sinful desires of it rejecting it all the way until it's purified. Regardless, someone needs to show how this happens "all the time" in the Bible, please.

Shiralee: Spolers: GOD RAPED MARY. What? Someone had to.

Mark Z: Since you bring it up, Mary consented. "I am the Lord's servant. May it be to me as you have said." — Luke 1:38

Sukeban: Then again, being God Almighty is a bit like holding a gun to the head, only infinitely more so...

Sunder the Gold: Nevertheless, just the Virgin Conception alone cannot support the current and unprofessional comment that "It happens a lot" in the Bible, as something like this only happens once in the entirety of the large book. Further, from the perspective of the story, it's explicitly not rape. You'd have to approach the example with the approach "From an outsider's point of view, this event could be considered an example of this trope" to have a lick of accuracy, since the story, original audience, and the characters involved would never consider this rape.

And that doesn't even address the possibility that Mary might have loved her God BEFORE He came along to put Jesus in her womb. And if I were God, I think I might approach a woman sufficiently devouted to Me to make a decent mother to my Son, so odds are good. And, IF Mary did previously love God, then the Virgin Conception is nothing like rape and more like the natural consummation of a marriage. Which means it's possible that even from an outsider's point of view, this example couldn't be rape.

Even if you look at like God the Father giving his daughter a heavy burden for the good of mankind, it's little different from God giving an important role to any other biblical hero - compare Moses's duty to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt. He sets duties before His children, for the good of the world. His burdens require sacrifice, pain, hardship, and alienation. But His servants have rewards on Earth from their labors, and many times in the Bible God promises endless and disportionately large rewards in the life to come for services rendered on Earth. And the adventures serve to make his children into heroes of character and stength. So whatever "injury" God inflicts on a person, they don't merely get recompensated later - it turns out to be the best thing that ever happened to them. And Mary loved her son Jesus very much.

Considering all of that, I'm removing the entry entirely. If anyone wants to put it back in, perhaps they should be more professional about it.

Twin Bird: @ Rebochan - Axe to grind?

1. The story clearly seems to portray Karen's actions as the product of a depraved mind, not Marshall's, even when he physically attacks her. The "she's insecure / men are not victims" tirades come entirely from the fans.
2. She doesn't actually rape Marshall. She starts to masturbate him without his explicit consent at first, but after his adamancy before, he was definitely amenable.
3. Marshall isn't a victim - not because he's a man, but because he's stronger than she is and willing to use mild force when necessary, and has made both facts quite apparent. He is willing and able to stop her at any time.
- Rebochan: In order:
  - 1. The story still seems to excuse Karen for being a depraved person and Marshall for not putting out.
  - 2. His reaction wasn't really shown there, just him not stopping her. And seriously, would anyone have excused Marshall if right after they'd agreed to boundaries, he'd grabbed Karen's breasts and the story showed her liking it?
  - 3. This still places all the burden of responsibility, not on the person who is making advances, but on the person rejecting them. Also, they'd just agreed not to do this and she did it anyway.
Rebochan I made a shot at natter zapping, but there's probably a better way to handle it that covers both sides.

((Mercuryin Retrograde}}: Uninformed comment, but let's give women some credit here. Even if a guy is willing to use _mild_ force to subdue a woman, that's not going to be enough if she's dead set on achieving her objective. Women are adults by definition, which means they're fairly strong and subduing one requires commitment to _considerable_ force and likely will end with injury of said woman. So the fact that most men are very limited in their ability to fight back due to their morality should be taken into account judging these situations.

fleb: Uh, this one confused me, because I don't remember there being any sex scenes in Blade Runner, let alone one where the hero rapes his love interest. I %-commented it out for now. "* Speaking of which, Blade Runner has Rick force Rachael to say she loves him as he rapes her. She's a robot, so it's ok. "

fleb: Cutting these. a) The Bible one is clearly not an example, based on the over-the-top vengeance, and there's no mention of Diana wanting to marry her rapist. b) That's just natter; the original bullet-point just happens to only have experience with women victims; c) Like with Diana, Tyson doesn't count if it's one-sided ( and "rapee" isn't a word). d) That last thing would never pass the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement, as the natter attests.

* This one goes all the way back to the Bible, making it Older Than Dirt. Dinah, a daughter of Jacob, is raped by a Canaanite chieftan named Shechem. Apparently their relationship developed so much during this time that he wants to marry her and goes so far as to have himself and all the men in his town circumcised to gain her hand. While the men are still in pain from the procedure, Dinah's brothers sack the town, slaughter all the men, and take the women and children as slaves.

[reply to: "Sadly, I have seen this play out [...]"]
**Does it only play out with male-rapist/female-victim dyads, or does it occur with others as well? This troper finds it a little disturbing that the above seems to imply the phrase 'abuse victim' excludes men. Or women victimized by other women.

* Mike Tyson and his rapee: To the best of this troper's recollection, the story went that Tyson's post-coital repartee included the line, "Don't you love me now?"

* Rape Is Love probably happens a lot more than you think in real life because it's unlikely to be reported.

** Er, the lack of rape being reported has more to do with the victim's embarassment than a Rape Is Love situation. Rape is something that a victim would normally want to forget, and not let others know about. Also, even today, rape can be blamed on the victim (they were were wearing revealing clothing, were flirting, should have been able to defend themselves, etc.). This gets even worse outside of the U.S., since in other countries, rape can be a legal punishment, can 'defile' a victim, and give their family embarassment. Heck, there was a politician from ENGLAND who compared rape to forcing a woman to eat chocolate cake. Anyway, the point is that while there might be Rape Is Love situations in real life, that absolutely does not explain why rapes often go unreported.

** Your example is one British lunatic whose career is now DOA because of said quote. Also one of the most pervasive and invisible 'blame the victim' phrases is 'men can't be raped'. Male equals consent apparently. Unless it's crossing sexual preference lines, but if it doesn't, then it's not rape. For example, gay men can't be raped in prison. Yeah. The things you learn.

*** I have always found the fact that male rape often isn't considered rape terrible. I did use the term 'victim' instead of 'woman' to include both sexes, after all. Also, the politician wasn't the only example. It was the only specific example, to prove that victim blame occurs in societies where one would think that it wouldn't exist, and it was more reliable of a statement than 'This Troper has known tons of people that think the victim is at least partially to blame!'.

MercuryInRetrograde: If the original troper only has experience with female rape victims then that should be reflected in the first sentence. In other words it shouldn't read 'abuse victims' but 'female abuse victims' otherwise it sounds like 'abuse victims' == 'women'. Which is wrong. And offensive. It should either be clarified or struck.

fleb: Okay, clarified. You can always clarify things yourself on a wiki, you know.

Nornagest: I'll leave this up to the consensus of the Hivemind, but I'm not sure this belongs here —

Semi-subverted in that it was mutual "rape": it is revealed towards the end of season 1 of Veronica Mars that her "rapist" was Duncan, and that while she doesn't remember she was quite conscious and consented while drunk and on GHB...as did he while under the same influences, and though he remembered it, he still thought it was wrong...because he thought she was his half-sister.

Active participation, in most jurisdictions, implies consent. As far as I can tell this is Kissing Under The Influence, not any of the rape tropes.

{{fleb}: Yeah. That definitely only got added because of Veronica's confusion over what had happened. Cut.

Schala-Kitty: Mind if we do away with the absolutely gross overstatements made by the first example paragraph? While there are a yaoi plots that do use this trope there are just as many that don't - and look which way things are described. The majority of the paragraph can stay, I just want to get rid of stuff like the last line - "but try and find a yaoi series (shonen-ai ones don't count, as they don't focus on the sex) that completely avoids this trope." - because the majority in my collection is rape-free, with books like "Wild Rock," "Man's Best Friend," "Can't Stop Loving You," "Play Boy Blues"... not in nearly 400 pages of the anthology "J-Boy." No reason to get out the broad strokes and claim that the entire genre is based around rape.

James T: The way the article characterises the trope is hardly how such a situation plays out in (to pick the biggest example that comes to mind which isn't some slashfic bollocks) Watchmen, where Sally Juspezcyk forgives the Comedian, and her attraction to him is never implied to have anything to do with his attack. The description at first defines the trope by its bad psychology (the rape is causing the attraction), and then demands that any story in which events unfold in approximately that order ("NO TIME LIMIT" etc) must be exhibiting that bad psychology. What the 'no time limit' seems to imply is that, indeed, the 'Rape' is causing the 'Love' (therefore the time limit isn't relevant), so I've specified the causation in the first line, and killed that paragraph, since it throws the net artificially wide.

Beforet: Concerning the Real Life folder and all of the examples of the Christian martyrs: do those really have anything to do with the trope? Women dieing because they don't want sex doesn't seem to be much of an inversion. Either that or I don't quite understand what an inverted trope is. Not going to remove them, just kind of want an explanation.

Mullon: Shouldn't that picture be under Rape As Comedy instead? Or is everyone afraid to find a real Rape Is Love picture?

Doktor von Eurotrash: Should this page really have a Tropers' Tales section? Especially since the one item in it is *not* about actual rape. I find that a bit distasteful.

Kuumi: While I don't find it distasteful [ to each his own ] I agree it should be removed.

Doktor von Eurotrash: Kudos to whoever added the new item in Tropers' Tales. Kudos, I say!

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