|
Narrative
|
Space Drake: Sweet Jesus 66.99.254.5, if you're going to purge every spoiler tag in the trope list, at least ask before you do something like that. And good lord, if you do so at least delete all the end tags. I don't have time to fix that right now, but someone please do so.
And yes, there are in fact tropers who haven't seen Evangelion yet. New people get into anime yearly.
annoyed-by-spoilers-guy: Shoot, I've edited since the beginning and I can't believe I forgot this. Lemme dig in my cache, I know I have the pre-spoiler-genocide text somewhere.
Cassy: Is it possible to re-add / not to overwrite the additions I've just made? Also, since we're at it, how about we discuss the size of the review? I think it need to be reduced but Wascally Wabbit disagrees (see bottom of this page). Other opinions?
Roihu: Is it safe to assume that the Spoilers Off page does not exist? It's tough luck if you haven't seen it, but people have had 13 years! Thirteen freaking years to watch the whole TWENTY SIX(+) episode anime! If you couldn't watch it in a lengthy 13 years, then, really, you shouldn't feel robbed when you get spoiled of things. Unless we're talking about alternate continuities, ALL SPOILER TAGS SHOULD BE ELIMINATED. At the very least, we should eliminate spoilers of the original series. I don't know anything about all else, so I can't speak there. And I don't just mean from this page, but from all examples Evangelion related.
Willbyr: I can understand the arguments behind removing spoiler tags, but at the same time equally valid arguments can be made for keeping them. Also, in the case of NGE, you have to keep in mind that while the anime has long been finished, the manga is still going and there's still potential for spoilage there. I would prefer that the tags stay, at least until the manga is done, but it's not a strong opinion and if the majority of opinions swing toward removing them, that's fine with me.
Roihu: Amazing. There's still a manga? How many chapters does it have?
Willbyr: Eleven tankobons worth so far...I think the final goal is twelve. Chapter 78, I believe, was released recently.
Roihu: Most of the spoilers I've seen concern the anime. Those should at least be taken down.
Cassy: Sadamoto has stopped his long hiatus, as chap. 78 went out last month. The preview for chap. 79 has just gone out, so... maybe it means the manga is actually ongoing. For now!
Looney Toons: Nameless person at 129.15.127.254, you should leave editorial comments on the discussion page. We're not using the double-slash comment convention in the main text any more. Otherwise, incorporate what you're adding into the text proper, as I did with your note on Pillar Of Light. Gus Much later: "The Internet's most trusted Anime news source"? Defy all authority, everywhere, all the time. Scifantasy: *shrug* Pull the link if you like. But as I have no other information about them, it seemed worth it to say that this wasn't just some guy writing on the page...that there were other people talking about it. Chrome Newfie: With due respect to the person putting all the work in, but if this is a tropes wiki, why do we need pages for all the major characters of NGE? I can't think of any tropes from the show that need the characters to be separately detailed. More importantly, if we start detailing significant characters, we're going to have a LOT of work ahead of us. IMO, leave the show details to the anime sites and Wikipedia. Gus: First here is an old in-text comment ...
Sikon: What's so AssPull-ish about the premise? (added) Also, what are the other two examples of The Spock (besides the obvious one, Rei)? Ritsuko and her mother? And I think there's at least one straight (not subverted) example of Heroic Sacrifice: Misato in End of Evangelion. Jim: Well, it could be considered subverted in that sure, she dies to get him to the launch bay, but the bay is still pumped full of bakelite, preventing him from rescuing Asuka. Plus, her final act was to give him a Last Kiss, and promise to jump his bones, which, coming from her, could only have screwed the kid up worse, at the worst possible time. ((moved from Cut List)) Mister Six: I'll probably look like a fun-ruining bastard because of this, but... cut all of the character profiles linked to from the Evangelion page (the worst of which is probably this one) because it's a slippery slope towards Wikitedium and they're just greasing the slide... Lale: How about cutting the minor characters and leaving the major ones who actually have links to lots of other tropes in their descriptions? Mister Six: Or just chopping out the trope names and putting them on the Evangelion page with explanations of which characters represent them. At most, I'd say have a general character page with a brief, one-line description of the characters and then bullet points to the tropes they embody. There's no need for a 1,500 word summary of Shinji's role in the series. That kind of thing should be saved for specific fansites. Andrew Leprich: I kind of have to agree with Mister Six. Once we start down that road, where do we stop? Looney Toons: Apparently right there, because the Eva page has been like that for something like two years, and in the interim no one else has shown an uncontrollable urge to spawn individual character pages for other series. Lale: This is Evangelion we're talking about — more complicated and Mind Screw-ish than others. HeartBurn Kid: I gotta be honest with you; having those there was kinda making me think of doing a few pages on specific wrestlers (really notable ones, like Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, Undertaker, etc). Tanto: I'm filing this one under "If it ain't broke". Citizen: And I'm filing this under "broke", two-year gap be damned. Lale: Nobody's making more, nobody's getting hurt, some of us still like them. We Are Not Wikipedia. Mister Six: I've actually changed my mind about this. It was needlessly uptight of me. Lale: So can we just cut this conversation from the Cut List? Seth: Shame i missed this one, i always thought those were a little unnecessary - let the purge begin! Citizen: And Wikipedia does have pages for individual characters, so Lale's point may be moot. =P Lale: But the Powers That Be over there don't like them. Ununnilium: I say keep them. Like I've said before, we like having oodles of detail on a specific series. This is where it should go, not Wikipedia. I'd like it if all our series entries had this level of detail. Keepkeepkeep. Jefepato: Hey, guys? I realize we aren't Wikipedia and don't have rules against POV, but isn't "Websites can and do safely label it 'the greatest anime ever.'" seriously pushing the boundaries of sense even so? dkellis: I'm wondering about the same thing myself. To me it's certainly Extremely Notable, but nowhere near the Greatest Anime Ever label. (I mean, personally, I hate it, but that's an extremely subjective opinion.) I'm unsure if my own viewpoint is less or more or equally valid as that line. Ununnilium: Ugh. Take that out. dkellis: Removed. The line, copied-and-pasted, for records:
Lale: What is Shinji's Catch Phrase in Japanese? Dr Dedman: Nigechatta (short form of nigete shimaimashita) dame da! "To run away (regretfully or "in the end") is no good (useless). Lale: That was quick. Thanks! priopaxis should the artice mention the fact that like half the characters fit the "mad scientists beautiful daughter" bit ? Rei, Ritsuko, Asuka,Misato Caswin: ...and as of the crash, my "down, boy" edits are gone. Yes, I understand that TV Tropes has a very relaxed stance on POV/NPOV writing, and I certainly don't mind, but this is taking it way too far. The article treats the show like an inarguably mind-blowingly awesome and glorious masterpiece of our times, and treats its problems as though they were entirely emotional in nature. In particular, the last two episodes aren't infamous for being "too intense" - they're infamous for being practically incomprehensible. In the interests of retaining some semblance of objectivity, I think this thing needs to be scaled way back... but unfortunately, I haven't seen nearly enough of the series to do it myself. Can someone help? Demetrios: I have an amusing question to ask about Evangelion. If one were given the opportunity to date Asuka in real life (an opportunity I for one would jump at), would her arrogant nature lead to a Man Hands situation? Filby: So, according to this page  at an Eva wiki, the vast majority of the infamous "death threats" from End of Evangelion were actually letters of praise, and the only one that's clearly threatening Anno-sensei seems to have just been from some dumb Internet crank. (There was also some vulgar graffiti, but it's not clearly directed against Anno or Eva.) The only piece of "hate mail" actually criticizing Anno was in regards to the first movie, Death and Rebirth, not the end of the TV series.
Also, according to the same site, EoE is not Anno's revenge on the fans, but actually closer to what he originally wanted to do for the series; they just ran out of budget.
Just throwing that out there.
dunerat: evageeks is not well known in the community for being very good at what they do, rather,they are well-known for just the opposite: they're terrible at it. The original commentary project was a great idea, but so often and consistently required corrections to their scripts that they lost all credibility about ten minutes after they started. Maybe they've improved recently, but there hasn't been any evidence of that.
Anno's original vision for the series was not destroyed by budgetary concerns, those didn't appear until after the show was concluded. Nor was it an either-or scenario, both episodes 25-26 and 25'-26' are part of his original ending.
As for the translation of the notes, that they are death threats is Word Of God.
Dr Dedman: It wouldn't be THAT hard to check. The original story outlines for all 26 episodes are in the Newtype magazine art book. They're just printed pretty darn small (4 or so to a page) and in Japanese. Any one know of some large scans? Granted, translating them would be a bit of a bear, but it's doable.
Cassy: The only one I can read in Japanese says very clearly "Anno, korosu!" ("Anno, I'll kill you!") three times. I read the Evageeks wiki page a while ago and I'd find it surprising if some of these were actually letters of praise. (I think dunerat's being too tough on Evageeks, though. I think they do a great job overall -but again, I've been actively avoiding the Eva fandom for years.)
Sikon: "Seiki" (世紀) means "century", not "birth". See this entry .
Meta Four: Hey everbody. I've taken the individual character pages and lumped them into two big articles in the Characters namespace: Neon Genesis Evangelion Central Cast and Neon Genesis Evangelion Supporting Cast. I guess this means we can Cut List the old character pages? Charred Knight: Since I consider the use of Grandfather Clause when it comes to TV Tropes another excuse for bias then yes. Lomelinde: I have a question. What was Maya working on? In End of Evangelion, she says/thinks "Is this what I was looking for?" What is she referring to? Cassy: It's been a while since I watched the whole thing, but I think I understood she meant the reason why she'd been working at Nerv and/or her existential goal (they probably overlap, this being Eva and all). I think you'd have better luck getting non-sucky answers by posting this on the Eva Just Bugs Me page. Charred Knight: Considering that Inu-yasha's myth arc, and One Piece Myth Arc are hundreds of episodes, Evangelion's is tiny with only 26 episodes and an alternate ending. Hell One Piece isn't even close. We don't even know who the Big Bad is going to be. All we know is that its probably someone in the government. Its not even large when compared to Western shows like Babylon 5. Dr Dedman: Yes it has to be considered a short myth arc. But consider the concentration of arc. Eva has virtually no "padding" episodes. Every single show is directly advancing the plot (no reset button, no steps back). Interestingly, Eva is a lot more concerned with how the central characters are touched by uber-plot, at no point do they really take control of it (lord knows Misato tries). The explanatory section for this series sounds like Anime with real human themes It makes claims of exploring notions of being "a study of individual alienation, betrayal, wheels-within-wheels conspiracies, obsession and apocalyptic fervor" but, here, precisely where I might expect some explanation of this or further exploration, it drops off and makes the whole description sound constructed and uninformative. While I won't go so far as to say the page sounds like it was written by marketing staff to hook me onto the show, it does come across as Anviliciously smacking me around with everything the series allegedly is from a philosophical standpoint rather than what the show actually is. It's not that I have some grand bias against anime, I was actually really looking forward to reading the page before having a go at the series myself, but this is really dissapointing as series pages go. Caswin: Would you believe it used to be worse? (Nice pothole, by the way.) Space Drake: I went ahead and purged the "Mary Sue Exemption" entry for housekeeping, since the actual trope page seems to have been deleted as well. If the actual trope page is restored and deemed worth archiving by the larger community, feel free to put the entry back in! Space Drake: Another bit of house cleaning: what's the justification for saying the show is an example of Touched By Vorlons? I'm not seeing it. If nobody can come up with an example in a few days, I'll go ahead and delete the entry. Cassy: I deleted it because after re-reading Touched By Vorlons, I thought Evangelion didn't fit there. —- Cassy: Uuuuhhh... OK, folks, I think most of the bitchy Eva-hating on this Wiki needs to disappear (though we can do with some healthy sarcasm at Evangelion's most egregious aspects), but so does the endless gushing... For example, why should Evangelion have a description that's at least twice as long as most other works, even those in the "noteworthy" category? All I'm saying is, maybe there's a reason why some tropers go absolutely frantic with rage whenever Eva is mentioned on Tv T... Wascally Wabbit: It has a double length entry because someone took the time and effort to write a double page entry. No reason their work should be whipped because the fans of other shows aren't as dedicated. Cassy: I never said it was worthless but I think part of it should either be moved to discussion, summarized, or integrated into the description by tropes. It's even longer than the writeup of other series that already have pretty long writeups, and it must be pretty off-putting for people who stumble onto the page for the first time. Also, call me cynical if you want but I don't think this would be considered appropriate for other series, except maybe the other series that have a super-fervent fanbase on the Wiki; on most other pages it'd get nuked or compressed almost immediately. Yeah, I do think Evangelion was visionary and influential, I'm certainly interested in seeing different analyses of its influences and 'legacy' and I'm obviously not the only one, but this is getting out of proportion. Willbyr: I replaced a lot of the spoiler tags which were mentioned as being deleted at the top of the page, as those hanging brackets were fucking annoying. Cassy: Thanks! Anonymous: I just performed some extensive surgery on the list of tropes - correcting some misunderstandings of key characters and events, removing tropes that did not even remotely apply (red wire blue wire? WTF?), expanding two or three items, etc. I hope you don't mind too much, but I was getting pretty goddamned sick of people claiming that Rei is an emotionless albino.
Willbyr: Utritum, thanks for changing the Freudian Excuse entry back to what it was. That being said, I wonder if the point about Ritsuko should be put in the entry... Willbyr: Dammit to hell...the spoiler tags are there for a reason. Clearing them out but leaving the damn brackets...and there's no way to just push a button and undo an edit with this wiki software, at least not that I know of. Willbyr: I think the sub-entries under Expy should be moved to Captain Ersatz. Agree/disagree?
Looney Toons: Removed the following addition to the Badass Decay entry, because it literally made no sense there. Maybe someone who can figure out what the contributor meant to do can fix it. ,not anymore since he came to help Shinji with a AT Field of his own and only a pistol to troll the jsdf
Cassy: In the new chapter of the manga, Gendou rescues Shinji (or rather, retrieves the pilot of Unit-01) with the help of an Adam-powered AT-Field, which is incredibly ludicrous (I swear, I laughed for half an hour). I mentioned it somewhere else on the page, though, so I don't think it's useful to add it in Badass Decay -and honestly, I think his intervention was badass for all the wrong reasons, though his speech is the most pathetic thing ever seen in NGE.
Stranger: I don't get the Badass Decay entry. Whilst I agree about manga Gendou being more emo than his anime counterpart, how does that equal to Villain Decay? He's still a major SOB and is even currently commiting more active villainy than he ever did in the original anime, ludicrous Adam powers and all. Oh, and about his pathetic speech; are people honsetly forgeting that ''EVERYONE'' in Evangelion is psychologically messed up? Nobody can stay a calm and collected Bad Ass forever in this series.
What confuses me more is that is also says "Asuka for some." But it doesn't say WHERE Asuka ever went through Badass Decay. And if it's the manga, than I'd have to laugh out loud at that; her introduction in the manga established her as a Bad Ass; where's the decay in that?
So, NO. Gendo has NOT gone through Villain Decay and Asuka has NOT gone through Badass Decay.
Cassy: OK, I've integrated your comments and made the editorial reserve more explicit. You can chill out now, the whole page is Your Mileage May Vary and it's possible to record a fandom reaction without agreeing with it. It makes sense to say that the fans who charge Gendou and Asuka with Badass Decay completely missed NGE's message, but that doesn't mean the point wasn't raised in the fandom and/or played with in the work, and anyway I don't think either of us has the absolute truth about the show. Can we shake hands and call it a day?
Stranger: Seems better now. Thanks.
Willbyr: Question regarding You Gotta Have Blue Hair: Would Kaworu's hair count? Gray is a normal human color, but for a 14-year-old boy? Also, would eye color count toward this trope, or is there another that's more appropriate? I'm thinking specifically of Shinji's blue eyes in the anime, which as far as I know is very unusual for a Japanese person. Cassy: I think Kaworu's hair and eyes would definitely count... As for Shinji and Yui's eyes and Misato and Kaji's hair, I think they're meant as stylized, because having a whole bunch of characters with brown/black eyes and hair might lack diversity, thrill, or whatever.
Willbyr: Anyone feel like taking a stab at the new entry for Kaworu on the character page? Willbyr: Regarding the last edit - IMO, Asuka really doesn't fit the trope. What do you think? Cassy: Which edit/trope? Willbyr: Listing Asuka's attack on Arael and its consequences as an example of Leeroy Jenkins. While what happens (a reckless charge turning into an absolute massacre) might fit, nothing else about the trope really applies. Cassy: That gave me a chuckle and surprised me but yeah, re-reading it I think it doesn't apply, it would be Hot Blooded or something similar. Leeroy Jenkins is about n00bs, which Asuka really isn't. Also, it's specifically a MMORPG trope, and the Eva canon hasn't done anything related to that as far as I know -we're not in Datenroku :b. (I still like the idea of Asuka attacking Zeruel or Arael yelling LEEROYYYYY JENKIIIINS, because I have a childish humour like that.) Sean Tucker: Should Rebuild of Evangelion get its own page? The NGE page is getting way too long, and Rebuild is taking the plot WAY Off The Rails, almost to the point of being a different series entirely. It resembles Super Robot Wars more than anything else Eva, as of 2.0. Ronin Aquila: I agree. The Full Metal Alchemis Franchise has THREE pages, one for EACH version of the franchise (Manga, Anime Mark 1 and Anime Mark 2) because each version is completely different in tone, story, character and spirit. This too should apply to this Idealistic, Hopeful and POSITIVE Evangelion to diffentiate it from its cold, dark, cynical and nihilistic parent. And I have just created a page to do so. Willbyr: Regarding the last addition to the intro...is that really necessary? The only thing that I see that actually helps the article is the mention of Zig Zagging Tropes, and that could be moved into the trope list rather than mentioned where it is. Willbyr: So as not to start an edit war...the quote from Sartre that was recently removed: I can see it applying in more than one way to the series as a whole, although it definitely applies mostly to Shinji. Should it stay removed? Anoniguy I thought it was an excellent, most fitting quote. It fit with the tone of the series much better than that blurb from Cruel Lina's Thesis. If I had to choose one of those two, I'd go with the Sartre every time. Amitai: I'm the guy who tried removing it. Sorry I took so long to reply. Anyway, I'm aware that it does cover some of the themes, but none that I believe are extremely important. If a quote from an external source is really that important, I think it should be one dealing with isolation or something rather than Shinji and why he's not a Badass. I think Ritsuko's lamenting on the hedgehog's dilemma would fit, no? Willbyr: Found this through the Purple Prose page...worth mentioning here? |
This wiki is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License.
