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Narrative
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Gus: I don't know ... just block-quoting off another site? Do we have any value to add?
Looney Toons: We should. I think we need to yank the quote out and at the very least rephrase its contents. I'll grab a local copy and if I get a chance before lunch I'll putter around with it this morning.
Looney Toons: (5 hours later) Putter successful. And yeah, I know I swiped the image and quote from the top of Rob Kelk's meganekko page, from whence the original megaquote came. But that's okay, Rob's a friend of mine, and hey, the quote is public domain as it's from a newsgroup. I was going to go with some more positive variation on the classic "Men never make passes..." poem, possibly riffing on Ogden Nash's own response ("A girl who is bespectacled/May not get her necktacled..."), but I stumbled on that quote and I felt it fit my purposes perfectly.
Baby M: Good job on the rewrite. I went with the blockquote because it was the best I could do in a limited time and, well, darn it! we needed a "Meganekko" page. Your version is much better, Mr. Tunes.
Looney Toons: Thank you, Baby M.
Gus: Tasty!
Duckluck: Is the name essenstial? I understand that this is a well-known trope among hard-core otakus, but I for one am never going to be able to remember or even spell the name. Can we get one in english like Cute Glasses or Bespectacled Cutie maybe?
Seth: I would say the name is essential. Its like calling a page on BDSM "Whips chains and leather".
Ununnilium: It's pretty well-entrenched, yeah. If we renamed pages with good names that were hard to spell, we'd have to overhaul half the wiki.
Citizen: Indeed. I don't really care for this term, so I'd side with Duckluck, but it's still a lot easier to spell than that Unlucky Childhood Friend one... That being said, everytime I first look at this trope title I see Meganeko... which I'm sure is something entirely different. =P
Jisu: Okay. Meganekko is a lot easier to spell than osananajimi (and yes, I still hold a grudge against all that renamed Unlucky Osananajimi to Unlucky Childhood Friend), and anyone can learn it. I think those of us on the anime side of things are just being slung mud at with all this — remember when a certain someone wanted to either cut down the anime examples or give them their own wiki so as not to "intrude" on the rest?
HeartBurn Kid: Would Lisa Loeb count as a real-life example?
Scrounge: After a quick google search, I'm going to have to say 'hells yes''. Also, is it just me, or are they increasingly common in webcomics, even those that aren't otherwise Animesque?
Runa27: Jisu... go live in Japan. Seriously. If you can't bring yourself to speak English when it makes more sense to title the article that way, you're probably better off there. I found this page half expecting it to be about a catgirl-like trope, and instead, it's a completely different one that isn't even exclusive to anime! (More common there? Yes. Exclusive? Hell no, what about Fred from Buffyverse spinoff Angel??? She's like an over-18 version of this. Well, before the Lovecraftesque god possessed her, at any rate.) It's one thing when it's just a redirect, or if there is at least a redirect TO it, or if it's genuinely a term that would lose meaning or whatnot if translated ("Senior/Junior" just isn't the same as the very Japanese concept of "Sempai/Kohai", although is it just me or does our Sempai Kohei page misspell the latter?). But if it's the ONLY ARTICLE, on an extremely simple concept such as this, why the everliving fsk isn't it just "Glasses girl" or "Cute Girl With Glasses" or something? Honestly, I thought your user page was an outright parody, but apparently it's not. I suggest a rename or a redirect to a copy of the page that has something more, you know, not in a foreign language most visitors won't be able to decipher accurately? For the record, before you bitch that "it's a common usage!", IMO it's not common enough. It's not like the word is like otaku, or manga, or sempai or sensei, where even some outsiders to anime would understand it or where it can't be translated without losing the true context. I have been OBSESSED with anime and manga and Japanese culture for almost a DECADE, I grew UP watching it and talking about it online for crissakes, and I have never, ever heard this term. The concept? Sure, it's extremely familiar. But no one I've ever talked to uses the term "meganekko" for it. Not even the people that throw around Japanese words on a frequent basis. I'm not saying it isn't used; I'm just saying, it's not so commonly used or so specific to the culture that it should be ONLY in Japanese.I say this as someone very obsessed with anime and manga and the culture and all, who has only waited this long to even officially take Japanese (I start Tuesday) because she couldn't register for the class in time/afford to/they didn't offer it, someone who in fact loves the Japanese language. Japanese is beautiful and cool and all squishily-squee, but PLEASE just write the damn thing with an English title, because it's insanely hard to find with the search function, and it shouldn't be. I'd create a redirect myself (at very least), but I don't know how, I'm begging you, people, somebody anybody, just create the redirect at least? Cute Girl With Glasses or Glasses Cutie or even just the "direct translation" of Glasses Girl seems appropriate enough, don't you think?
Seth: A little negative and too hard to read since it is one massive block of text, but some good points in places. At this stage i would be against changing the name just because of how old this page is. But renaming Sempai Kohei to Senior Junior Relations or Sempai Kohai makes a little sense. If just because the current title is mispelt (Of course simply correcting the spelling mistake fixes that). The term for this page is a new description for the old fetish, and is such not so well known as older descriptions. There is no real thing as an expert on the subject.
I for one have heard this title used outside of the wiki. Usually in cases where one is dissecting moe on a critical level (On forums, articles or that one scene in Suzumiya Haruhi) or in discussions like this one. You can watch a lot of anime and know jack about japan, so insulting another person because you have never heard a term means nothing and makes me want to disregard the positive remarks you have made.
Usability says that titles should be English, yes. But since Glasses Girl is hardly a direct translation i would go with the japanese. Or do you want to rename Yamato Nadeshiko to Perfect Woman? Well they are the closest translations i can think of but the English doesn't even come close to the concept. Same with this and many of the other japanese titled tropes. Get off your high horse.
Runa27:OK, first: "A little negative and too hard to read since it is one massive block of text" - I am unused to the way this Wiki formats its text (I've only used Wikipedia clones before), so that's why it's a block of text; I don't know if it is possible to indent without the little bullets that make it look like a new comment. I apologize for the reading inconvenience, it is born of me not using the discussion pages here much yet outside of the YKTWW section (I don't know how to sign my name yet, since I've only been editing main articles and the, well you know). It's "a little negative" because I'm tired, it's been a long day, I hadn't eaten in over four hours (and it was a coffee and pretzel, no less, that served as lunch), and I find this page completely by accident, when I've actually been wondering why it didn't exist before, and I got a little annoyed (no excuse, I know, but just wanted to explain why I was losing my temper out of seemingly nowhere :P). Especially since I just read Jisu's user page. I'm an otaku myself - hardcore otaku, practically, I'm even studying Japanese because of it - and I still find the things she says there almost unbelievably arrogant and ridiculous; like I said, I thought it was a joke at first (you know, poking fun at fans too blinded by the love of their favorite shows to notice that not everybody else is so enamoured as they are? Like the stereotypical Trekkie, except going by that analogy, they also expect people to know a smattering of Klingon?), but it's actually apparently serious, as at least one article on here actually uses it in a joke... regarding "turning into a Jisu". As a cautionary tale. She honestly says things like "What's wrong with meganekko? Osananjimi will never die!". Honestly, it's almost embarrassing, I mean it embarrasses me as a fellow otaku to see people going that pushily overboard (and I'm embarrassed a little for her, to boot, because she surely doesn't realize how she's coming off, or she wouldn't be so pushy-sounding), that they act like they can't get it through their heads that liberally sprinkling their English with Japanese isn't a mark of being cool or sophisticated or exotic or even just nerd-trendy, after a point it's really just annoying and obstructive and hinders communication with people who have the singular gall to speak any other language but "Japanglish", if you will. I apologize for the minor blow-up there, but I really have just run into one too many of those kinds of single-mindedly obsessives lately, and there's only so many times you can have it insinuated to you that you're not cool or trendy or smart enough somehow, if you don't know what an osananajimi is, before you just kind of... snap, you know? Even though I do know a lot of those terms, I don't think we should expect people on an English-language, general-interest entertainment tropes wiki to know them, I think it's outright rude to say they should, really. I mean, imagine we weren't talking about Japanese. Imagine it was somebody doing it with German, or French, or Swahili, with rough equivalents available in English that really don't obscure the meaning all that much, but they don't tell you until after the point of user convenience is past what the hell they're talking about. On a public wiki. Where the whole point is to conveniently organize well-written, fun articles about tropes so that they're not just a good read, but also relatively easy to find... and you'll perhaps see why I lost my temper a little, I hope. ...and yes, I once again apologize for the huge block of text. ;_;
Second:, "but some good points in places." Thank you, I'm glad you could stay un-mad at my temper-loss long enough to look at it objectively. ^^ (It speaks well of you, needless to say :P)
 Tips For Editing Text Formatting Rules Page Templates Wiki Tropes These should get you started on how we work and why we do it. Tanto: Jesus H. Christ, what the hell happened here? You all should really just relax. Seth: We should have made the MST 3 K Mantra a policy page years ago. Looney Toons: You said it, Seth. Yeesh, Runa27, don't you have anything else to do with your time? Flat out, whatever you wanted to accomplish with that spew, you didn't, at least as far as I'm concerned, because I didn't care to read it. Anyone who uses a wiki discussion page to dump a rant of that size strikes me as potentially closed to reasonable discussion and compromise. So for some reason you don't like "meganekko", apparently because it's Japanese. Well, tough. I find that I've been saying this a lot recently, but this is another time where it's needed: We didn't make up the term — it's current and common usage among English-speaking anime fans, regardless of it being Japanese. Wherever possible, we document existing terminology instead of creating our own. Saying "I don't like your jargon, I'm going to make up something I prefer" is both arrogant and obnoxious, and distances us from the very people we're trying to inform and entertain. If a hardcore anime fan comes in and sees "Glasses Girl", he's going to write us off — with some justification — as know-nothing posers who don't have a clue. I'd rather have the clue and you pissed off than have no cred and a smiling Runa. osh: Wow discussion go stale when they get long. Aside from my suggestion to wipe the rant, how about a simple redirect to this page from Glasses Girl? Sci Vo: I'm with Runa27. This is one of the worst trope names on the entire site. Yes, it has nominal inertia. That's no reason for me to avoid critizing it. I'm going to be vocal about this and not pretend that it's a good name, nor even pretend that it's an acceptable kind of name for new tropes. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I'm not a cameraman, and I don't always know what a Camera Tricks trope is going to be before I click on it. However, I can read all of the words in their names, and there is no way on Earth that that is too much to ask for. I've re-read the article several times, and as far as I can tell, Glasses Girl means the exact same thing without being an unnecessarily-obscure foreign-language term that looks like it would mean a giant cat or something. Next time you're thinking of making a trope name with Gratuitous Japanese? Don't. Just don't. dkellis: You know, considering I had to learn Narm, Phlebotinum, Lzherusskie, Splat, The Alkazar, Schmuck Bait, Expy, and countless others, I think Meganekko is the least of our worries for Odd Names. I like the name. I understand the name. And all this complaining about it is beginning to get extremely tiresome. EDIT: Apparently I didn't learn them well enough, since I still misspelled The Alkazar. Sci Vo: I wouldn't have bothered saying anything, but there are actually people defending "meganekko" as a trope name! That gives the unmistakable impression that they think that it's a good trope name, and would like to use more such names in the future. No way am I going let them mistake silence for agreement on that point! dkellis: Then add me to the people defending Meganekko as a trope name. I'm fine if it had been the other way around ("Meganekko" redirecting to "Glasses Girl"), but to me, if I wanted to search for the trope, I'd have put in "meganekko" first, and then tried all combinations of "cute girl with spectacles" or "cute glasses girl". It's an integral part of the fan vocabulary of the Otaku by now, same as Tsundere and Dojikko and Moe Moe (well, "moe"). A Meganekko is not just a girl wearing glasses, she's a cute girl wearing glasses which further brings out that Moe Moe feeling. The phrase "Glasses Girl" does not, to me, bring out that same connotation. Whether it's a good trope name depends on what one believes is considered "good" for a trope name. Personally, I think "meganekko" is just fine. ADDITION: Let me try to make an example to clarify this: let's say the trope is named "Glasses Girl". This, to me, could mean anything from the present Meganekko to Blind Without Em to Beautiful All Along to Hot Librarian to simply a girl wearing glasses and no comments whatsoever about her looks. But "Meganekko" makes it clear to me exactly what the trope is: a girl who is Moe Moe or otherwise attractive because of her glasses, rather than being attractive without them. English is not my first language, so I may not be expressing myself all that well, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. Sci Vo: You have nothing to apologize for. You expressed yourself far better than the trope description, which sounded terribly generic by comparison, even though I re-read it (and then again!) to try and make sure that I wasn't missing anything before going off on a rant. Ununnilium: ...wow, apparently there was an attack of Serious Business. @.@ But dkellis explained why we should keep it better than I could. Bravo~ (Also, I love the line "Wikipedia suggests we see also "glasses fetishism". Sanity suggests otherwise.") Lale: Please just keep things simple and leave it as Meganekko! TJ Devil 02: You should all be ashamed. All this discussion of Western meganekko examples and no one brings up Velma? Am I the only one? Scrounge: You're far from the only one, and I feel well and thoroughly humiliated for forgetting. Lale: Rebecca from Yu-Gi-Oh? Scrounge: Huh. She started out as more Lolicon, bt a google search revals that after I stopped watching Yu-Gi-Oh, she did indeed come back with a pair of glasses. Not sure how much her personality changed, though... And given that she started out not beign one, would she count anyways? Maureen Mac Donald: I there a male equivalent to this trope? A guy who is hot because of their glasses, outside of the more vauge Nerds Are Sexy. If I may quote Jacob from Television Without Pity on the Doctor:
Zeke: Hmm. About the response to my PPD entry...
OverWilliam: Didn't find this worthy of the main page (at least, not before sounding it off of the discussion), but I figured it was worth mentioning Hinata from Naruto somewhere in association with this trope just for the irony's sake. Hinata's personality is about as close to this trope as you are likely to get (complete with fan base despite being minor within the cannon), the irony being that with the Byakugan she is about as far removed from needing glasses as you could possibly get. That being said... this troper has seen certain Fanart that he cannot re-locate that has him convinced that she would look veryvery good-look-ing with some on. ;) I deleted the El Goonish Shive example. Tedd has never been shown wearing his glasses as a girl. and he appears to be wearing them less and less overall, exceot to as a signal for one of his 'mad scientist moments Why is the word split "Mega Nekko"? AIUI, it's a compound of "megane", meaning "glasses", and "-ko", meaning "child" and a frequent ending to female names. It really shouldn't be split at all, since it's all one word, but if we must, it still seems weird to split in the middle of a morpheme. Caswin: It isn't a split. Someone must have either thought it was and linked it as such, or gotten lazy. SSJDK Crew: Wait, what? Kitty Pryde? She wears glasses? Since when? I can't find a single picture of her wearing glasses online, nor do any of her animated series interpretations ever seem to sport the precious spectacles. The heck? As a longtime reader of marvel comics, and a big fan of all Meganekko-like characters everywhere, I'm sorry to say that that one came out of left field for me. I'm not saying she never wears them; just that I've read umteen million issues of X-men, and never seen a single bespectacled superheroine. Obviously, there's something wrong with that, but is it really my fault for not noticing? |
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