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Narrative
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alt title(s): The Inheritance Trilogy Discussion Content copied from The Inheritance Trilogy Discussion
Ununnilium: Took out:
Wild Knight: The above is a 404 error. Just...just sayin'.
Lale: I'm sensing something similar to the Animation Age Ghetto in the above discussion, that "children's/ young adult literature is not quality literature." Kilyle: Insanity. I'm 29, and many of my favorite books (when they don't come from the Classics shelf) are Young Adult:
Seth: Putting the quality of the books aside (Because i have not read them) even as an adult i enjoyed to film. Derivative doesn't always mean bad. Ununnilium: I thought the film was at least okay, though I did continuously point out the Star Wars parallels, much to the irritation of my friend. Phartman: Woah, I just found out that this Paolini kid is my age! That does it: I'm going to start writing a book of my own. I don't know what it's going to be about, but my only rules will be #1: No dragons, elves or dwarves, #2: No borrowing from well-established literature, and #3: No stupid names. Wish me luck, as my family doesn't own a publishing company. Lale: The Outsiders has none of that (except for the stupid names, but owners of said names know they're stupid), and S.E. Hinton wrote it at age 16. Phartman: Good point about Ponyboy. Still, I can't go back in time seven years, so I'd have to work with what I've got. The third rule would probably be the easiest to adhere to; is it so hard to just name an elf Fred or something? Lale: Hard, no. Doable...? Not all unusual names have to be stupid — just look at the nickname system in Holes. Did we just start a trope? Whats In A Name? Phartman: Yes, I can hear it now: Fear me, for I am the evil Emperor Fleebwonk McGruzzlebutt! I know, I know; silly naming is just verisimilitude for "what you're reading is not supposed to parallel reality at all," but it's difficult to take some characters seriously when they have names like "Galbatorix" or "Dooku." Especially Dooku; your villain's name should never sound like a euphemism for baby poop. In all seriousness, I have plenty of confidence that I could crank out a decent book. The only difficulty would be in selling it, as that would be the only part that's out of my hands. There, am I in the club now? Duckluck: A couple years ago, I sat down to write a book, so I wrote a prologue. I went back and reread it and realized it was shit and I needed more writing practice if I didn't want it to turn into something lousy. All I'm saying is that Eragon is just as bad as the thing I threw out as garbage. I'm sure I could write something as good as Eragon, but I could never get something that bad published. Phartman: Well, first off; I'm glad we're now on the same page for the most part. However, I hear people always say stuff like "When I look back at my own work, it's always so terrible," but the truth is, I don't get that from the stuff I write. It always seems like something someone else did that I'm reading in a magazine or journal. I've only ever done opinion pieces and reviews, but my prose is clear and easily relatable without insulting the reader's intelligence, at least that's how everyone who's sampled my work has put it, and could easily lend itself to fiction. I don't know whether it's that I'm talented, arrogant, or I just have a lousy memory (please don't choose for me), but writing is one of my very, very few gifts, and I'm confident in my ability to tell a story that doesn't draw from anyone else's work. In fact, I lied about not knowing what to write; I've been running the entire story through my head for months now and it's just a matter of transferring what's in my head to paper, which I've now started on. Really, I don't have a beef with this Paolini kid; I respect storytellers no matter what their level of ability, even if I think the story itself totally munches and the prose reads like a D&D manual. And I don't care that the kid got mom & dad to publish it for him, either; even if no one else ever wants to read my story, I still want to tell it. Wish me luck, Duck. Morgan Wick: Meanwhile, I aim to write War and Peace. Only not so boring. My problem is getting out of the first chapter without getting bored. Phartman: Let's see: on the one hand, I have my own large portfolio of previous nonfiction projects and the encouragement of numerous peers and professors. On the other hand, a crabby stranger who has no idea who I am just made a facetious and unfunny remark. Hmm... Wick, you make a compelling case, but I think I'm going to continue with my outline anyway. Sorry. Duckluck: To be fair Pharty, we don't really know how good a writer you are, but since 90% of everything is crud and we all know it, you should expect to be met with some cynicism. Anyway, good luck man. Besides, even if your book turns out to be crap, you'll never know until you write it. ...and that's all the time I have tonight for inspirational cliches. Good night, internet! Phartman: One of my other natural gifts is the ability to tell cynics to kiss my ass, so I won't be letting anyone dissuade me. The only luck I'll need is in finding an audience for this when I'm done, but I've already started on the project; I've spent at least 30 hours in just the past week working on the character outlines and a draft of the overall plot arc and it's coming along quite well. Seth: Even if the book sucks you can make some money from it if you can convince someone else it doesn't, hell I have an aunt who made 20K from her horrific autobiography. So it's always worth a shot. And if it's a hit, well you can always donate money to pay server costs :D Phartman: Well, I do owe you guys for all the laughs, I guess. But the way things are taking shape, I doubt this is going to really and truly suck, and if we're using Eragon as our baseline, things start to look even better for me. By the way: it's a coincidence, but one character's middle name is actually Seth. Seth: I don't blame you. It is a spectacular name :D Lale: Quote — "However, I hear people always say stuff like "When I look back at my own work, it's always so terrible," but the truth is, I don't get that from the stuff I write." That's a first. Even Louisa May Alcott hated what are considered her best works, while the books she slaved over and put high hopes of fame on are hardly even remembered. Phartman: Like I said, I'm not sure if it's that I'm good or that I'm just cocky, but the few people I've shared my work with, even professors who hated me and desperately wanted to fail me, have all told me that I should be writing. But really, to reiterate: I'm not doing this to make money or gain recognition, and I don't care if it ever even gets published; I'm doing it because I want to. But the break time's over, and I've going to get back to work on it. Be good. Kitoari: At any rate, back to Inheritance Cycle Discussion. I had come to the conclusion that it was worth reading, but no way in hell am I paying for the fourth book. Why? The author stated that resolving Eragon's killing related angst (which already had bucketloads of Moral Dissonance) added 100 pages to Brisngr.And it didn't really resolve it all. With that kind of prose, you know What'll happen: 5 books... 6 books...Inheritance Cycle Forever... Lale: Is it true that someone actually says at one point "Look within yourself — you know it to be true."? Wild Knight: Yes, it's 100% true. The context was different from the original situation, but it was still jarring — if I remember correctly, it was Eragon convincing his cousin that his uncle was just as much of a father to him (Eragon) as he was to his cousin. Air Of Mystery: It's worth mentioning that you can have an empire and not be an emperor. For instance, France had an empire even when it was a republic. So Yeah. Selasphorus: Any intentions/objections to doing redirects for Inheritance Cycle? I've seen that one around the site in a few places rather than Inheritance Trilogy, and now that it's officially not a trilogy...
Rogue 7: Ansem Paul, it's generally not a good idea to bash two completely random shows on a completely separate page for no reason other than you dislike that this series gets criticized to hell and back (and I'm one of the group that thinks it deserves it.) Saying that, if you want to debate Naruto with me, I'd love to get started. Ansem Paul. Was a bit childish of me, I admit. But as for YGO GX, how come this site has a dozen pages mentioning how supposedly awful and cliched this is, yet it treats an anime about an unbeatable mentally retarded kid (seriously, he can't even remember the text on Pot of Greed AND THATS 3 WORDS) playing as a deep mind screw show. I call shennigans Rogue 7: It's "shenanigans". And I think that what you saw was the Mackered English dub- done by 4Kids, surprisingly enough. I haven't seen the Japanese version, but apparently it's quite a bit darker. Hell, I haven't seen most of the english version. And IdiotHeroes does not mean that a plot can't be deep or complex- Tales Of Symphonia, though certainly chiched, is an example of this. Wild Knight: To review:
fleb: Under Kick The Dog...
Wild Knight: Random, likely useless observation: I'm starting to wonder if anyone editing this page has actually read Brisingr, or is just taking Kippur's word for it. Point of reference: the Shout Out bullet shows up only after she (he?) posted the sporking of the chapter in which the Doctor Who reference is made. Now, to be fair, I'm a little guilty of this myself, as I haven't read Brisingr and don't really intend to anytime soon (I did flip through it at Barnes and Noble...). No malice intended in this observation, I'm just...observing. It strikes me as curious, is all.
Alilatias: I've decided to take out the following line, because for one, this page is not a full-blown subjective page, and two, an entry that basically insults others' intelligence does not belong on a not-completely-subjective page like this. I feel that this one has crossed the line between tolerable and offensive/unacceptable.
fleb: About "YMMV"... of course mileage varies. Everyone's mileage varies for everything that's ever been made (e.g.: some people hate Citizen Kane). It's a truism, way too vague and universal to be useful except as a Stock Phrase reminder. Broken Base, Contested Sequel, and Love It Or Hate It would be "people disagree" tropes specific enough to be listed, but none of those seem to apply here. The Gunheart: Okay, having never read the books, I have to ask...under Author Appeal, what the hell are the "blue furries" referring to? Anon: Oh gods, the blue furry. I had forgotten it existed and I was so happy. Uh, it's this elf that has modified itself to have blue fur which exudes pheromones that make him super-attractive to women. As you might expect, he's a jerk. Superkid11: Ok, fan of the books here. Although I recognize most of their flaws(ripoffy, Boring Invincible protagonist, ect), I'm going to have to call BS on a few of the assumptions made about the book and Paolini. First of all, the "Religion is Bad/Stupid" agenda he allegedly has. People seem to be forgetting about the Dwarves, who are quite religious and generally presented in a good light. The Elves, it seemed to me, were implied to be not quite as perfect and always right as they'd like you to think. They may not be correct in their atheism. It seemed to me that the existence of any Gods or afterlife in the series, despite what Glaedr says, is left completely ambiguous. Just like in [[Real Life]]. This really struck me after Hrothgar's death, where Orik said they needed to ensure his passage to the afterlife. Plus Orimis said "I won't tell you what to believe." The Dwarves and Elves present the two belief systems and Eragon is left to decide which one he agrees with. His moment when he promised to return to Brom's grave also suggested to me that he hasn't completely bought into the "no afterlife" belief yet. Which leads me to the next thing. The Elves supporting all of Paolini's beliefs and ideologies. If Eragon is supposed to be his Author Avatar, shouldn't he agree with them by now? I admit, I'm only 100 pages into Brisingr, but Eragon is willing to eat meat to survive and doesn't lecture people on it who enjoy it. "Moderation is a wiser policy than Zealotry, I think." - Eragon in Brisingr, can't be bothered to look up the page.
He seems to be trying to make sense of the world around him in his own way, not side with the Elves.
I think there are other things I could argue about, but I can't think of them at the moment. It just kind of irritates me that people can make such assumptions about an author based on the fiction he writes without any word of mouth from him.
(Unless any of this came from an interview with him or something. Then I'll happily put my foot in my mouth.)
Wild Knight: Ooh, intelligent discussion with a real-live fan! As much as I dislike the books, it's good to see some of you exist, you seem like such a rarity!
Now re: the religion of evil/stupidity/etc. bit, it's more a case of Unfortunate Implications and undertones beneath the work when taking into account some of the things known about Paolini—mainly the fact that he is at least atheist, and "lean[s] in that direction" of vegetarianism. The dwarves are generally presented in a good light, yes, but the scene everyone remembers is the one where Arya coolly and cleanly cuts down an angry dwarf priest's logic "in a very pleasant voice." Paolini portrayed Arya's argument as reasonable and logical and the (slowly losing his head) dwarf priest's argument as outright stupid, which made this self-proclaimed agnostic and even some major atheists uncomfortable. It felt like he set up the priest as a Strawman Religious, if you will. Sure, the dwarves are still good guys, but this scene made it sound like they were stupid good guys—if Paolini felt like being fairer, he would have written the dwarf priest as more level-headed and thoughtful than "RAWR YOU INSULT MY GODS HULK SMASH". That scene, Oromis's tract on religion, and the totally random chapter where Eragon converts to veganism are the scenes that stick out in everyone's mind, because it felt like the author stopping the story cold to espouse those beliefs. Eragon may or may not agree (or pay attention), but those chapters killed the pacing of the story and went off on tangents—the usual signs of an anvil being dropped.
Re: Eragon's Author Avatar-ness, for most of Eldest, I don't think it can be argued that Eragon essentially does adapt the elvish beliefs—he converts to veganism, he questions religion, and he Deus Ex Machina's into a half-elf thing that makes him super duper strong.
The thing about everything I've just written up? It all applies to Eldest, at the latest. And to be totally fair, we're not giving Paolini a chance when we continue to criticize him without reading Brisingr—and it seems like some of the Author Avatar-ness is being addressed, with examples you cited about Eragon making his own decisions. Those chapters in Eldest left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, though, so that's what the Fan Hater tropers cite. Still, if he really is undergoing Character Development, that'd be a great thing to note on the main page.
Superkid11: Wow. I completely forgot about this. Yes, I seem to be somewhat of a rarity. I guess I'm a [[Twofer Token Minority]], also being an intelligent person among Runescape players. (granted, judging by the Runescape page on this site there's plenty more where I came from, but when weighed against the rest of the Runescape community...)
I haven't picked up the book again in some time, so I'm not entirely sure whether this trend keeps up or not. I hope it does.
Insanity Prelude: I shouldn't have read this page before Brisingr came out. Now I've got the library's copy and I'm sitting here wondering if I can read it without all the negative opinions coloring mine (I actually enjoyed the first two, though admittedly, that was some years ago.) Also- I forgot until I read the "previously on the Inheritance Cycle..." bit at the start of Brisingr, Eragon's supposed to be fifteen? Possibly sixteen now? He sure as hell doesn't act it, even before the whole half-elf transformation thing. Superkid11: If you enjoyed the first two, you'll enjoy Brinsingr. Plus if the above discussion is any indication, Brinsingr is actually better than the first two. One thing I should tell you though. At one point, there is a scene with a bee that is supposed to be dramatic but will probably make you laugh. Lale: The old page description was funnier and more clever. fleb: Ditto. Put it back—the most recent spoiler was already tagged anyway. Raxis: The Cain And Abel example should just get dropped, because nobody seems capable of agreeing as to which of the two is which. Jerrik: Maybe it's subverted? Cain And Abel does seem to apply to Murtaugh and Eragon respectively, but is screwed up by their motivations. Wild Knight: ...Doesn't Katrina get pregnant in Eldest and isn't it a minor plot point and a big reason why Roran wants to marry Katrina? It's been years since I read the book and I can't bring myself to do so again, but I seem to remember something along those lines (I definitely knew that Katrina was pregnant before hearing a thing about Brisingr...). Wild Knight: I see people have started ignoring the note. Time for some Bold Inflation. I'm too lazy to try and clean up all the natter, though... ...and yet I did anyway because I was bored and drunk and had nothing better to do. WHEEEEEEEEE. Seriously, people. This is a wiki, not Anti-Shurtugal. I realize we're freer and shit than Wikipedia, but letting our opinions (both negative and positive - outraged defenses of the series aren't any better, you're sinking to their level) run fucking rampant over the page made it an absolute MESS. Cut it. The fuck. Out. Believe me, I hate the series — trying to read Eldest when I was a teenager gave me a migraine headache so bad I'm fairly certain I missed school the next day. But if I can hold my opinion in and maintain some goddamn modicum of neutrality when I'm not even sober, I think the rest of you are perfectly capable of that as well. Come on. This is TV Tropes, not some AOL chatroom or 4chan or some other dark slimy corner of the Internet. This is a place of concentrated awesome that recognizes both cool and uncool works. We're better than this. Don't prove me wrong on that count, for cryin' out loud. Xi Whoeverski: Removed the following:
Should the fact that Christopher Paolini plagiarized numerous paragraphs of text from David Edding's Belgariad series be mentioned in the article? I could point to a number of sections where Paolini literally copies half a page or more, changing little more than the names. Man Without A Body: Will someone please tell me what Eragon did to that Sloane chappie, and why? I keep hearing the event vaguely tossed around as Moral Dissonance, but so few details are given that it feels like some kind of Noodle Incident to me.
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